tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post6006915828750330107..comments2024-03-28T21:17:45.398-05:00Comments on A MOMENT OF CEREBUS: Restoration Bulletin-- High Society Trim Size SuggestionsA Moment Of Cerebushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02718525538144698138noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-33237813540849953392015-01-02T10:16:10.045-06:002015-01-02T10:16:10.045-06:00Carl had this to say via email--
"With respe...Carl had this to say via email--<br /><br />"With respect to your question about High Society trim size... If you can give me Moar Biggerest Artwork! for the same price, and without making the print fall into the gutter between pages, go for it. I have no problem with moving page numbers (or even *gasp* deleting them entirely.)"Sean Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09794186823194520775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-7738769979434971002015-01-02T10:15:45.473-06:002015-01-02T10:15:45.473-06:00Hey Jeff,
As far as I've seen so far, though ...Hey Jeff,<br /><br />As far as I've seen so far, though I haven't studied all of the books as of yet with an eye for this, most of the pages stay within the same aspect for the majority of the time, except for the pages that were intended to be full bleed (i.e. travel off the paper) in the monthly book. Of course, with the current margins, those pages aren't full bleed in the trades... Another argument for tighter trim sizes, imho...<br />Sean Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09794186823194520775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-10848280601520772502015-01-02T10:13:27.780-06:002015-01-02T10:13:27.780-06:00Hey iestyn,
Thanks for the great comments. Not ra...Hey iestyn,<br /><br />Thanks for the great comments. Not rambling at all! <br /><br />I'm with you on the case bound, but it's not in the cards for this edition, as it's already been solicited with the current price, and the casing would add some money per book to the production cost. Ditto your idea of a second edition-- there's a very strong economic argument against having dual editions, mainly the cost of keeping all of them in print simultaneously. I think if casebound editions or any really different changes in the format were to happen, it would have to happen as a replacement to the current editions. I think those of us who would prefer a redesign (I'm including myself and you in this) would probably be best off sending Dave comparable books in the mail, making a mockup, or even getting together an informal list of preorders. With the new printer we're working with, we can do web offset work with only 500 minimums. So, conceivably, if 500 fans wanted something badly enough, and were willing to pay for it and preorder it ahead of time...<br />Sean Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09794186823194520775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-85321082747641750882015-01-02T04:47:00.564-06:002015-01-02T04:47:00.564-06:00Btw, just to be a pain in the ass, at which I am s...Btw, just to be a pain in the ass, at which I am so adept (just ask Dave) what about the pages, wherever they occured, when Dave used ribbon borders instead of "flat" or "straight" ones?<br /><br />Could that affect new margins/gutters?;Jeff Seilerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543690118315946039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-8178107908528775042015-01-02T04:38:45.251-06:002015-01-02T04:38:45.251-06:00Having read all of this and the (aardvark) comment...Having read all of this and the (aardvark) comments, I agree that the last example is the most aesthetically pleasing.<br /><br />Mike?<br /><br />Kitchen?<br /><br />You still out there?<br /><br />Remember what happened with your 2-page spread in CRIC4(#right?)<br /><br />In the centerfold?<br /><br />Of course, that issue was, what? 20 pages?<br /><br />Still, Tim, take a look at it or similar exemplars, and I think you will see that the centerfold margins are the most important. All of the other 6 margins, on a 2-page spread are peanuts, compared to the fold.Jeff Seilerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543690118315946039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-68362063788095145282015-01-02T04:32:47.072-06:002015-01-02T04:32:47.072-06:00Am I also allowed to make a more radical suggestio...Am I also allowed to make a more radical suggestion - as well as standard editions - issue limited numbers of Archival editions with analysis and historical content from critics to provide context to the work as a whole.<br /><br />I think some kind of archival version would be great - examining the comics market place in terms of content and production - why were the phonebooks such a break through, etc.<br /><br />The controversy over Dave's views, as shown in articles published at the time.<br /><br />etc.iestynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13451525711033030181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-78083603546753896262015-01-02T04:28:43.791-06:002015-01-02T04:28:43.791-06:00Oh - and page numbers - definitely page numbers - ...Oh - and page numbers - definitely page numbers - looks much more like a unified whole.iestynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13451525711033030181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-39026701421677799182015-01-02T04:26:58.138-06:002015-01-02T04:26:58.138-06:00Sorry I was so rambling by the waySorry I was so rambling by the wayiestynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13451525711033030181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-6148096035620972742015-01-02T04:26:32.717-06:002015-01-02T04:26:32.717-06:00I'm going to say - I would always favour a cas...I'm going to say - I would always favour a case bound book, it makes the reading experience that much easier and better.<br /><br />I find that the perfect bound books crack on the spines very easily and chip very easily. I also find that holding them open is a much harder thing to do, eventually it's just too tiring on the hand!!<br /><br />The other thing that I think about is the use for these books - I know my local library (Brighton UK!!) had the whole collection of Cerebus trades, but this has slowly been eroded due to the spines wearing out.<br /><br />Commercially - I also think it is important to consider the impact of what you are trying to achieve, if this is to be the 'perfect' edition, then I think you should be going with something that has more longevity and which rewards those individuals re-buying these trades with more than an improved image - providing an improved package.<br /><br />I guess it comes down to what you see as of value here. <br /><br />Aesthetically - I'm always a little disappointed that the pages sit in isolation to each other in trades - I know everyone sees the discreet unit in a comic as a page, but I always think of it as the spread. I also think a double page could be given closer internal margins to make it match together, where as something like the landscape pages in some issues can sit in much wider margins. I'd even say there's room for full page bleeds, as we see in the Heart of Thomas example - but I bet I'm in a minority on that one!!!<br /><br />I think, in the end, I'm saying there is some call to reconsider the package as a whole - the quality of the item on sale - to reflect the improved aesthetic. I think considering page layouts that are variable and suited to pushing forward the impact of the story and reading experience is the way to go. I will always, personally, favour having a thin margin between pages because it maintains the double page unit - but I suspect I'm in the minority on this.iestynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13451525711033030181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-22537011440810104742015-01-01T10:00:13.483-06:002015-01-01T10:00:13.483-06:00Thanks for the great comments everyone. Keep them ...Thanks for the great comments everyone. Keep them coming please! <br /><br />I wanted to say, especially in light of some of the very helpful comments above, that a lot of these decisions are interactions with the current materials. Just posted this update to the initial post that will hopefully make it clear an instance of that interaction--<br /><br />"I just realized that I didn't explain why the 1/2" gutter margin works on the Heart of Thomas book but not the Akira book. That's because of the binding. Akira is "perfect bound" like the Cerebus volumes, i.e. signatured glued together. This eats up a lot more image in the gutter than a case-bound book like Heart of Thomas, which will easily sit open on any given spread. This is certainly the direction I'd go with future Cerebus volumes, if that option were available."<br /><br />Hey Michael-- in regard to the spreads-- Church and State I and II are the only ones I've examined so far for this, but many (all?) of those spreads were actually designed with the monthly book margins in mind. If you take a look, you'll notice that they "shrink in" to the center of the book. So the double page spreads, in my estimation, are really an argument for a 1/2" gutter and case bound book.<br /><br /><br />Sean Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09794186823194520775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-25498958269877701322015-01-01T08:48:22.749-06:002015-01-01T08:48:22.749-06:00Any of these versions will be great. Keeping to th...Any of these versions will be great. Keeping to the original dimensions is perfect if that saves time, slightly larger is beautiful if you have the time to spare... the page numbers can easily be removed or put to the inner footer area.<br /><br />I just wanted to say that although I've been following along the whole time, the reproduction of the cleaned up 2-page spread here was the first time it really hit me viscerally how gorgeous this is going to be. So I'm not really adding anything constructive, just back slapping. But back slapping is deserved. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07073938222632090968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-84077834529593937422015-01-01T08:34:21.594-06:002015-01-01T08:34:21.594-06:00I don't have any of the trades as I much prefe...I don't have any of the trades as I much prefer to read each issue. However, since I reread High Society more than any of the others I am planning to pick up one of the new ones.<br /><br />My big gripe with any trade is what gets lost in the center gutter. I like the look of the last one as it gives us the max image size and nothing gets lost. If page numbers is an actual debate, I personally don't need them, but I can see where they would be useful to others, so my suggestion would be go with the last option and move the page numbers to the center.<br /><br />John MosherJohn Mosherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09770517059231913193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-69825518962104268602015-01-01T02:44:53.040-06:002015-01-01T02:44:53.040-06:00Something to consider for the sake of consistency ...Something to consider for the sake of consistency with other volumes is how changing the interior margins will alter any double-page spreads. You neither want to lose the adjoining art nor see any gap between the halves.Michael Grabowskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-51276129975151656202014-12-31T19:27:41.818-06:002014-12-31T19:27:41.818-06:00The bottom one looks best to me as well, at least ...The bottom one looks best to me as well, at least as far as I can tell from a flat computer screen. <br /><br />I think the best options are either the original way the books are printed, or your approach at the bottom.<br /><br />What you have at bottom effectively creates a white border around the frames that feels like it holds the individual frames together. That effect is gone when the white space is expanded and it just looks like margins again. The smaller margins could look really sleek and seems to tighten up the look of the page, but as you point out, any unevenness will be more noticeable, so it could be riskier.<br /><br />However, I just flipped through my Church & State Volume I (Eighth Edition) and have to say that the large margins look good. They create breathing room. They don't distract from the artwork. The artwork does not get eaten up by the fold of the book; although it gets tight at some points. <br /><br />But overall, I have never noticed the margin spacing in any of the trades, or been distracted in any way by it, so it seems to be working pretty well as is.<br /><br />So, my vote is an equal one for either the original margin size or the bottom one you have created, provided that the outside margin can be made to look even.<br /><br />- Reginald P.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-36171603340718599542014-12-31T19:13:47.735-06:002014-12-31T19:13:47.735-06:00If I'm following, right now the margins on the...If I'm following, right now the margins on the roughly 9x6 art are: 1/2" top, 1/2" bottom (incl page number), 3/4" outer, 3/4" inner.<br /><br />To maintain aspect ratio, the top/bottom change needs to be 150% of the left/right change. That is, reducing the outer margin by 1/4" to 'only' 1/2" requires cutting the top and bottom by 3/8" to something like 1/4" and 3/8". And that only increases the image area by about 1/4" on 6", or 4%.<br /><br />If you want the outer and top to match and be no wider than the bottom, too bad. You can't do it without going much larger. Or, putting some of the outer margin to the inside.<br /><br />So, two suggestions:<br />* top 1/4", bottom 3/16" numbered, outer 1/2", inner 3/4". 4% bigger, but outer may be noticeably wider.<br />* top 1/4", bottom 3/16" numbered, outer 1/4", inner 1". 4% bigger, but inner margin might be getting wide for two-page spreads.<br /><br />I think numbers are valuable, both for noting my place and for reference purposes. I'm less sure that 4% is worth changing the margins.KevinRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-37232248813696100702014-12-31T18:33:02.511-06:002014-12-31T18:33:02.511-06:00I'm thinking the last one. I like the outer gu...I'm thinking the last one. I like the outer gutters the thinnest and the most space on the interior gutters. All the work you guys put in , I would think the bigger the image the better (what about a Marvel treasury sized edition?).It's also a pain to read when you do not want to push down on the phone book to read the inner portion of the page. Not having the numbered pages does not bother me.<br /><br />Here's a question that nobody has thought of. How will the new books smell when printed? I LOVE the way Preney Print & Litho books smelled!<br /><br />Sean, those images of the printed pages look awesome! Happy New Year to you and Mara ... and everyone elsereading this.<br /><br />Michael RagielAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com