tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post4956316325660332880..comments2024-03-28T21:17:45.398-05:00Comments on A MOMENT OF CEREBUS: Jeff Smith vs Dave Sim: Round 1A Moment Of Cerebushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02718525538144698138noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-35534780759823657032021-09-12T13:01:52.350-05:002021-09-12T13:01:52.350-05:00Hmm, this guy seems to be posessed by the same spi...Hmm, this guy seems to be posessed by the same spirit that posesses jordan peterson. Jeff, snap out of it, its not good for you.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-14552589880471740172017-04-02T13:07:19.753-05:002017-04-02T13:07:19.753-05:00Chris W.: You're missing the point, because th...Chris W.: You're missing the point, because that's not what happened by anyone's account. In both Dave's and Jeff's account, the offense (whatever it was) was given in the event, not in Cerebus 186. In the event is when Jeff threatened to give Dave a fat lip, not after seeing Cerebus 186. You have the facts wrong.<br /><br />It's also interesting that Dave often decries gossip as "character assassination", yet it's another frequently-used Simean rhetocial tactic. Why did we need to know about Neil Gaiman's temporary concubine, or Susan Alston's fondness for spanking?<br /><br />Dave has claimed repeatedly that, by virtue of being included in a work of fiction, "Jeff Smith" (and "Neil Gaiman" and "bi-curious Avril Lavigne") is a fictional character. So we're talking about Dave's "Jeff Smith", not the cartoonist Jeff Smith, hence (by Dave's own criterion) we're not to accept Dave's account as factual; he's using raw materials from real life in the service of his themes.<br /><br />-- DamianDamian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-77426164444143090472017-04-02T13:06:00.897-05:002017-04-02T13:06:00.897-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Damian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-36705578477364112472017-04-01T23:33:35.733-05:002017-04-01T23:33:35.733-05:00And what was the offense? The offense that was so...And what was the offense? The offense that was so horrible that Jeff Smith waited years to tell The Comics Journal about it, instead of taking Dave out back and settling it like men? Or at least like Buddy Baker and the Mirror Master?<br /><br />You're missing the point, that there was no offense until Mrs. and Mr. Smith decided there was years later, at which point Mr. Smith said he was going to take Dave out back and pummel him, and Dave backed down.<br /><br />I'll criticize Dave about how he handled the situation (I've done so on this very thread) but no one has pointed to what he said or did that equals an offense to Vijaya, other than what she decided after-the-fact, which isn't Dave's fault.<br /><br />ChrisWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-35623197183066768642017-04-01T01:20:05.712-05:002017-04-01T01:20:05.712-05:00Chris W.: I'm afraid you've missed the poi...Chris W.: I'm afraid you've missed the point. Vijaya didn't object to the events Dave depicted in <i>Cerebus</i> 186. The offence (real or imagined) was given by real-life Dave years earlier.<br /><br /> -- Damian<br />Damian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-32516221919994419082017-04-01T00:36:55.370-05:002017-04-01T00:36:55.370-05:00I'm not using "wrong" in the sense t...I'm not using "wrong" in the sense that he's done something morally or legally wrong, I'm using it in the sense of 'bad optics.' He's done it less since "Cerebus" ended, but he has a tendency to use fifty words instead of ten. He could have quoted the relevant text from #186, pointed out that Vijaya was barely mentioned, and there was obviously nothing in the event as described in #186 that would have offended her so badly that Smith demanded to 'take it out back.'<br /><br />See? I've just described what Dave could have done for the same purpose in far fewer words than Dave used. "Bad optics."<br /><br />Dave could also have responded to Smith much more quickly. Didn't he used to point out that, doing a monthly title, he could respond to Gary Groth or Kim Thompson much more quickly than they could respond to him? In this case, again, "bad optics."<br /><br />He comes off sounding like someone whining about something bad someone said about him in an interview a year or three ago. It's his right to do so, but I think the way he chose to go about it was "bad optics."<br /><br />ChrisWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-45944530035060074992017-03-29T08:07:56.450-05:002017-03-29T08:07:56.450-05:00It *is* gripping - I remember the original article...It *is* gripping - I remember the original article in the back of the issue and am reserving judgement (such as it is) until Parts 2 and 3, because Jeff Smith's response is clearly what's needed here.<br /><br />I agree with ChrisW in this regard - you don't wait to defend your wife's honour, you do it on the spot or not at all (unless of course you don't feel she has been insulted but are so pussy-whipped that when she goes on and on and on about how she's insulted you feel forced into defending her honour some time after the event, even if just to shut her up).<br /><br />I disagree with ChrisW about Dave using his "horribly long-winded style" - this is Tim's site, Tim's rules. Cerebus was Dave's comic, Dave's rules. He was and is entitled to go into as short or long a length as he feels justified and appropriate. I actually quite liked - and still like - Dave's turn of phrase (from the introductions to the Swords through to modern pieces) and as far as I'm concerned, more Dave writing is all to the good.<br /><br />This doesn't mean Dave gets a free pass to say what he likes and I'd go ra-ra-ra, but in this regard I don't see (so far!) Dave has done anything wrong at all.Craig Johnsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-16119903139544485022017-03-28T15:54:29.314-05:002017-03-28T15:54:29.314-05:00Dave Sim said:
But, that's fine, Tim -- your w...Dave Sim said:<br /><i>But, that's fine, Tim -- your website, your rules. </i><br /><br />Not quite sure how I've become the "bad guy" for running this. Perhaps you could wait for the second two parts before passing judgment? The first I knew about this "issue" with Jeff was reading this article in the back pages of Cerebus, so it is offered here in the same spirit. As I say, perhaps wait until part 2 and 3 before passing judgement on my motives.<br /><br />FYI - all 3 parts were going to run on consecutive days, but Travis came through with his Preview Picks, so the second 2 parts got bumped to the weekend. Sorry for keeping everyone in suspense... gripping though it may be...<br /><br />TimA Moment Of Cerebushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02718525538144698138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-52596679065062956342017-03-28T12:05:49.616-05:002017-03-28T12:05:49.616-05:00Do you mean reality, "reality," Reality,...Do you mean reality, "reality," Reality, or "Reality?"Tony againnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-53350451798784694492017-03-27T23:09:35.404-05:002017-03-27T23:09:35.404-05:00Chris W.'s description of the rounds does not ...Chris W.'s description of the rounds does not comport with reality.<br /><br /> -- Damian<br />Damian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-57784432107086715092017-03-27T21:53:39.678-05:002017-03-27T21:53:39.678-05:00Round 1, Vijaya feels insulted.
Round 2, Vijaya&#...Round 1, Vijaya feels insulted.<br /><br />Round 2, Vijaya's husband defends his wife, several years after the fact.<br /><br />Round 3, Vijaya wins. There's something about the guy who made Vijaya feel insulted and his response to Vijaya's husband who defended his wife several years after she felt insulted, but no one really cares about that stuff.<br /><br />Vijaya wins by TKO. The men never even have to 'take it out back.'<br /><br />A few moments ago, I was posting about artists' 'earlier, funnier' moments, where they were throwing everything in, and for whatever reason, I thought of Grant Morrison's "Animal Man" #7 or 8, the issue where he's setting up all the plotlines for the rest of his run. And there's a panel where Mirror Master has invaded Buddy's house and caused as many problems as possible. Buddy runs off, the Mirror Master fires a laser gun at him and tells him to put on his costume so he doesn't have to beat a guy in his skinnies.<br /><br />The next panel is exactly what I was talking about on that "earlier, funnier stuff" post. Buddy is still drawn with cartoony realism, but he's running into his bedroom with both legs perpendicular to his body like a Looney Toon. That's just funny, and it's probably something that Grant Morrison thought of while writing the script. I'm pretty sure Chas Truog wasn't drawing that issue, but maybe it was the guest-artist's idea.<br /><br />Either way, the rest of the issue is mostly Mirror Master kicking the crap out of Animal Man, until Buddy's wife comes home from shopping or whatever she was doing. Cartooning meets feminism meets good storytelling meets superheroes for one of the most awesome comic book scenes ever. Mirror Master terrorizes Ellen and the kids. He acts like the horrible villain. She calls him an asshole and kicks him in the nuts. After recovering (ouch) he slaps her around, and then she kicks him again, this time down the stairs, where he lands at the feet of the recovered Animal Man. Although Buddy has shown himself to be anything but a masculine husband, the reader feels the menace in his eyes as he asks "Did you just hit my wife?" The rest of the issue works out perfectly, and sets up long-running subplots for the rest of Morrison's storyline.<br /><br />To me, this is where comics and real life merge and diverge. If Jeff Smith had any basis for defending Vijaya's honor (which Dave supposedly insulted) he would have done so on the spot. You don't slap my wife around and get away with it. This means war!<br /><br />Since Dave was talking about nothing that Vijaya had anything to do with, that's not how Mr. and Mrs. Smith decided to handle things. I think Dave was wrong by using his horribly long-winded style of defending himself. But that's about it. He did nothing else wrong, the Smiths took offense regardless, and Dave's schedule meant that he waited years to return fire, another study in bad optics. It is what it is, but Dave wasn't the one who inferred offence where none was implied.<br />ChrisWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-63808300849199244232017-03-27T19:39:30.011-05:002017-03-27T19:39:30.011-05:00If Dave wants to get technical, I guess Round 1 wo...If Dave wants to get technical, I guess Round 1 would be the actual conversation, thus making <i>Cerebus</i> 186 Round 2 and so forth. So the "major piece of the puzzle" is not a "Vijaya insult" in <i>Cerebus</i> 186 (Round 2: Dave's recounting of the event) but a "Vijaya insult" in the actual event (Round 1).<br /><br /> -- Damian<br />Damian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-80761077434508885332017-03-27T18:02:47.017-05:002017-03-27T18:02:47.017-05:00I'm not sure how this qualifies as Round 1. S...I'm not sure how this qualifies as Round 1. Shouldn't Round 1 be the actual paragraph or two from #186 since, presumably, that's what Jeff Smith saw as the justification for threatening to give me a fat lip? Or "deck me" as he had it in another version?<br /><br />Is Round 2 going to be Jeff Smith's version from the COMICS JOURNAL's TRILOGY TOUR ISSUE...or is it going to be the early draft of it on Tom Spurgeon's site of his TCJ interviews? <br /><br />I mean, I get it: Jeff Smith: feminist GOOD Dave Sim NOT feminist EVIL!! But isn't the feminist threatening to give me a fat lip (that's Jeff's story, by the way, not mine) in the middle of a discussion the pugnacious one? All I was doing was explaining that Birth was way ahead of Death in our world. Which it would pretty have to be -- to the tune of billions -- or the human race would have disappeared by now.<br /><br />I insulted Vijaya. Okay, HOW did I insult Vijaya? I know Vijaya FELT insulted but until someone can find a "Vijaya insult" in #186, we're missing a major piece of the puzzle. <br /><br />Running this as Round 1, you've got the story backwards: making it look as if I was the one who threatened Jeff instead of (according to Jeff, anyway) the other way around.<br /><br />But, that's fine, Tim -- your website, your rules. <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06502294606395720342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-66341525199421593212017-03-27T03:06:55.752-05:002017-03-27T03:06:55.752-05:00Just one, Tony. It'll be walking around Wrigle...Just one, Tony. It'll be walking around Wrigley Field, at the Buffett show, in July.<br /><br />Jeff Smith threatened a fat lip when he perceived Dave as pissing him off. When Dave kind of pissed me off by misinterpreting something I had said, I responded with a 25-page letter.<br /><br />Not sure which was the more appropriate response.<br /><br />But, Dave and I still get along...so, there's that.Jeff Seilerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543690118315946039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-90212970558803177932017-03-26T19:56:10.899-05:002017-03-26T19:56:10.899-05:00Hopefully it's clear that I meant Seiler, not ...Hopefully it's clear that I meant Seiler, not Smith...Tony againnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-7429878417813787012017-03-25T16:30:14.469-05:002017-03-25T16:30:14.469-05:00That's OK - Jeff has much better dresses in hi...That's OK - Jeff has much better dresses in his wardrobe.Tony Dunlopnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-19064248305790917852017-03-25T16:12:21.681-05:002017-03-25T16:12:21.681-05:00As I recall, it was Dave's pugnaciousness here...As I recall, it was Dave's pugnaciousness here that led Diana Schutz to resign as his proofreader.<br /><br /> -- Damian<br />Damian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-91526309272184450412017-03-25T15:25:28.540-05:002017-03-25T15:25:28.540-05:00The illustration was for our signing at the Silver...The illustration was for our signing at the Silver Snail in Toronto. I had already had very good experiences with doing jam pieces that could be signed for interested (and, more important in some ways, disinterested) customers starting with the jam piece I did with Martin Wagner for the Cap City Trade Show. So I phoned Jeff and suggested we do the same thing: do a Bone drawing and send it to me with room for a Cerebus and I'll get the Snail folks to quick-print it when I've got my part done.<br /><br />When I got his picture of Phoney Bone, it was pretty obvious what sort of gag he was going for. So, I tried to take it down a few notches...<br /><br /> [Phoney, I think you'll agree, looks mighty steamed -- with six dew-flaps, Mort Walker's term (and he should know!) for cartoon sweat] <br /><br />...I didn't think a picture of Cerebus looking AS steamed was a good idea in the "giving people the wrong idea" end of things. <br /><br />Unfortunately, I had to come up with something that fit with the drawing I was given and the best I could come up with was a Bugs Bunny/Daffy Duck riff. <br /><br />Which might have actually been the RIGHT idea. <br /><br />How steamed WAS Jeff and how early? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06502294606395720342noreply@blogger.com