tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post6023596897928480957..comments2024-03-28T21:17:45.398-05:00Comments on A MOMENT OF CEREBUS: Restored READS now available - An Excerpt from "4,500 Words on the Restored READS"A Moment Of Cerebushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02718525538144698138noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-35889831828452195912016-08-16T02:16:32.699-05:002016-08-16T02:16:32.699-05:00Is it actually out now? Cerebus Reads that is. My ...Is it actually out now? Cerebus Reads that is. My LCS can't seem to get it even with the diamond code, as UK diamond doesn't know what he's talking about.Tim Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-89277019896221520552016-08-13T23:51:12.392-05:002016-08-13T23:51:12.392-05:00Oops! HTML fail; there's supposed to be a stro...Oops! HTML fail; there's supposed to be a stroke through "interesting" above.<br /><br /> -- Damian<br />Damian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-61786230575626328532016-08-13T23:50:18.904-05:002016-08-13T23:50:18.904-05:00Sean: I think you've mischaracterized Heidi an...Sean: I think you've mischaracterized Heidi and Bob, and I would be interested in hearing you explain more about "status anxiety" (which you said above is not covered in your "Reads" essay). I'll bow out of the conversation until I've read your essay and have something interesting relevant to say. Looking forward to it!<br /><br /> -- Damian<br />Damian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-77801711756260369852016-08-13T19:47:04.883-05:002016-08-13T19:47:04.883-05:00(I shouldn't have lumped Heidi in with the abo...(I shouldn't have lumped Heidi in with the above-quite a different kind of dismissal)Sean Rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-57575235101427333682016-08-13T19:38:12.670-05:002016-08-13T19:38:12.670-05:00Hey Damian,
"long-time uncomfortableness wit...Hey Damian,<br /><br />"long-time uncomfortableness with Cerebus' parodic element"<br /><br />See: virtually every mention of Cerebus in TCJ post-Kim Thompson having editorial input in the magazine (and post-Critters Fantagraphics, I suppose). Heidi MacDonald, R Fiore, Gary Groth mentions come to mind. Even current editor Nadel. (Excepting perhaps the Spurgeon interviews, which are at least surface sympathetic to Sim's artistic worth). <br /><br />All people that had a vested interest in "comics as art," but a changing view of what that might mean in practice, and how "team comics" might get there as a brand. Status anxiety, all right.<br /><br />As for the controversial thing, maybe we're talking past each other here. I don't think the books are comparable because a. for two of the we're talking legal action and investigation of law enforcement and b. controversy over visual depictions of illegal acts is a very different matter than controversy over written content or tone change of a long-running book. <br /><br />Like I said, would love to talk more about this after you've read the essay, so I don't rehash it here with less considered words :)<br /><br />My apologies for overreacting to your initial comparison (which I still don't agree with at all, but I understand your impulse a little better, I think).Sean Rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-24465531836912684612016-08-13T17:42:05.751-05:002016-08-13T17:42:05.751-05:00Sean: You accuse me of "cherry-picking" ...Sean: You accuse me of "cherry-picking" examples of controversial comics, but you haven't explained why these are not comparable examples ... unless you are trying to smuggle in the argument that they're different because <i>Cerebus</i> is good and <i>Verotik</i> and <i>Boiled Angel</i> are not. That claim is both debatable on its own and irrelevant to this discussion (though as it happens, I agree with you). They were all published at about the same time, and all attracted negative attention because of their content. One might even say that <i>Cerebus</i> was the least controversial of these works at the time, as law enforcement did not speak to Dave about his comic.<br /><br />And where do you see any "long-time uncomfortableness with Cerebus' parodic element"? The worst I've ever heard is that the parodies date the work in a way that makes it less comprehensible to today's readers. Is that what you mean? Then I think your phrasing is unnecessarily catastrophic.<br /><br />I ordered a copy of the remastered "Reads" from my LCS just this week (it's not in stock, of course), so I haven't read your essay yet; I'm still looking forward to it. But what do you mean by "status anxiety"? Again, I suspect that you're trying to smuggle in a claim about <i>Cerebus</i>'s artistic worth. If I'm wrong, please correct me.<br /><br /> -- Damian<br />Damian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-85287767019615937072016-08-13T16:19:05.560-05:002016-08-13T16:19:05.560-05:00Hey Jim,
Good points all, and I don't think w...Hey Jim,<br /><br />Good points all, and I don't think we disagree. I'd be curious to hear your reaction to the full essay when you've had a chance to read it!Sean Rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-76243074752376960212016-08-13T15:46:32.770-05:002016-08-13T15:46:32.770-05:00Sean, back to my point, I do think the COMBINATION...Sean, back to my point, I do think the COMBINATION of controversial (women are inferior) plus radical change of pace in the direction of the comic (incredibly sharp spoof of comics industry AND politics AND pop culture featuring a charismatic main character suddenly moves to lengthy, slower moving, dark or somber tracts) would be enough to derail any audience. <br /><br />"Controversial" works like Deadwood or artists like R Crumb are what they are early on. Cerebus shifted in a remarkable way, years into its career.<br /><br />If I have to think of a pop culture analogy, it would be the band Genesis going from 20-minute prog rock epics to suddenly delivering pop rock dance tunes. Of course, their shift alienated their cult following and delighted the mainstream.Jim Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723199909214872706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-46654076970496640252016-08-13T13:40:42.342-05:002016-08-13T13:40:42.342-05:00Hey Jim,
Excellent analogy. I agree completely. B...Hey Jim,<br /><br />Excellent analogy. I agree completely. But it still illustrates the broader point that "controversial" is such a broad term that cherry-picking items that fall under that header (as Damian has done above) can lead to apples-and-oranges comparisons that say less about the books in question than the attitudes of the person drawing the comparison (one that's further stymied by television's traditional restrictive nature) Would your theoretical pro-Palestinian MASH be as controversial as Deadwood? As The Wire? (Looking for a television show as extreme as the most extreme comics is also totally fruitless.) I mean, Urotsukidoji is one of the only books ever to have caused temporary imprisonment for selling, right? Is Urotsukidoji also comparable to Cerebus? <br /><br />And Dave is definitely right that the direct market enabled creative artists with a unique vision to reach and make a living from a comparatively tiny marketplace. Not unlike the best of the internet today. Note, though, that the economics in place (and the nature of reading on a screen, I'd argue) mean that the majority of what "makes it" digital only, at least so far, are gag strips and other humor strips aimed at niche markets. Has someone created something yet of the scope and committment of Cerebus through crowd-funding methods, something that sustained itself over many decades? Will it happen eventually? Possibly. Personally, I'm skeptical, and I do think the direct market as constituted in the 80s and 90s was a unique phenomenon.Sean Rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-34887442489166765462016-08-13T10:09:22.156-05:002016-08-13T10:09:22.156-05:00(Rough analogy, I know. Feel free to substitute Ch...(Rough analogy, I know. Feel free to substitute Cheers or Seinfeld)Jim Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723199909214872706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-21806778588192740822016-08-13T10:07:19.384-05:002016-08-13T10:07:19.384-05:00Sean, I think there is something to what you said,...Sean, I think there is something to what you said, but I also think that the remarkable change of direction that the book took created a lot of the bile. For many readers, Cerebus raced to the top of the comic world by being a certain way. It was snappy, witty, and maybe fell in line with its readers' thinking. It was focused on the adventures of a character who fascinated people. It stopped being that way. So it wasn't a title that was controversial all along; it was one that many people embraced and even bought the stuffed animal for.<br /><br />As an analogy, if MASH had suddenly taken a pro-Palestine stance for its final season, and Hawkeye barely appeared for many episodes, it would be called the most controversial TV show ever, even though other shows more consistently and deliberately pushed bigger buttons.Jim Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723199909214872706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-90520878436893648292016-08-13T08:10:42.677-05:002016-08-13T08:10:42.677-05:00The problem so bad with the way Damian used the te...The problem so bad with the way Damian used the term is what s wide swath of different types of boos it covers. Compare the reaction to. Mike Dana's work to the reaction to Reads and you get the idea why. I say they're two completely different things, not really comparable. As for theories, I'm doubling down in status anxiety, which also explains TCJ and others long-time uncomfortableness with Cerebus' parodic elements as well. Sean Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09614233518820831301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-54885125508689655012016-08-12T19:57:15.506-05:002016-08-12T19:57:15.506-05:00I'm having trouble thinking of any other comic...I'm having trouble thinking of any other comic at the time which took as "controversial" a stand on a popular issue, took as sustained a stand, and was as prominent as <i>Cerebus</i>.Barry Deutschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08796981762797604817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-15370892139809192322016-08-12T19:39:11.565-05:002016-08-12T19:39:11.565-05:00I think instocktrades.com has the new editions. An...I think instocktrades.com has the new editions. And I see them showing up when I put in my DCBS order.<br /><br />The original point I was trying to make, which kicked off an interesting discussion (thanks) is, it has always struck me as strange is that Dave/Cerebus seems to have been singled out, when, for decades, there have been so many works in comics and elsewhere that are so much more [INSERT_SYNONYM_FOR_CONTROVERSIAL_HERE]. I think the "status anxiety" theory is a good one. But I'm curious to hear if people have other theories. adampaszhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03996870582551608876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-39936500346141443702016-08-12T10:58:42.329-05:002016-08-12T10:58:42.329-05:00Dave - the re-read is hardly any sort of effort at...Dave - the re-read is hardly any sort of effort at all, in fact it's been quite enjoyable. <br /><br />Coming back to a work at various points in life always brings about new perspectives. <br /><br />One example for me is "Going Home". At the time it was published I honestly found it boring. Sure, I could appreciate the writing, the artwork and the sheer effort that went into those pages, but it didn't grab me at all (F. Stop? Riverboat, What the...?). <br /><br />This time around I thought it was great, I finally got "it", and could appreciate it on a whole 'nother level. <br /><br />The whole "Cerebus started to suck at (insert issue here)", just isn't happening (at least so far - lol). <br /><br />As far as the Remastered "READS" goes, as was mentioned by a few others here, Amazon is a mess and you can't be sure that you're going to get the new addition - at all. In fact, I doubt that you can. I'm not going to deal with an overseas retailer either (sorry). <br /><br />Accessibility of your work has to be paramount. It shouldn't be a "Where's Waldo" sort experience. <br /><br />Part of this is I'm 1. Busy (work along with buying and selling a home is a royal pita) 2. Lazy and 3. I have 2 copies of the READS trade already so what's the rush?<br /><br />I don't think I'm alone on this though. <br /><br />You used to sell the phone books directly back in the day - maybe I missed the reason why you don't do that anymore. Time, logistics, money? al roneynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-61789894664777046842016-08-12T00:02:58.849-05:002016-08-12T00:02:58.849-05:00We are on the internet. The internet allows for an...We are on the internet. The internet allows for an incredibly wide range of expression, wider than the typical LCS could imagine. <br /><br />Maybe prime time TV is heavily edited and modified, but come on, people. The net offers all kinds of expression.<br /><br /> A while back I joked at what struck me as the oddity of people writing to Dave here like he was Dear Abby. I think Dave is a comic genius, but I'd never thought of writing to him to discuss masturbation. Maybe Jim Starlin.... Dave chided me, saying this is the rare corner of the internet where people can express themselves honestly without fear of reprisal. I submit that with very little looking, you will find a multitude of sites where people speak boldly and freely, whether the topic be hatred of Hilary Clinton, love of tentacle porn, belief in the Palestinian cause, concern about vaccination, or anything you can think of.Jim Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12723199909214872706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-46471221295639981372016-08-11T23:57:38.368-05:002016-08-11T23:57:38.368-05:00Feminists being anti-porn is so 1990s. Nowadays th...Feminists being anti-porn is so 1990s. Nowadays they make porn.<br /><br />I wonder if "rape porn" was really what Dave intended to refer to? In any case, it's hardly something you could only find in comic book stores. I hear there may be all sorts of porn available on the internet.Barry Deutschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08796981762797604817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-65635157420277050222016-08-11T22:40:59.898-05:002016-08-11T22:40:59.898-05:00Damian, in Dave's defense (like he needs me to...Damian, in Dave's defense (like he needs me to do that), there are LCSs that sell pornographic comic books, as I'm sure you know. In fact, some of those books feature pornographic acts that are at the outer extremes of pornography--rape scenes, etc.--that mainstream porn could never show. They get away with it because "it's just lines on a piece of paper". Graven images.<br /><br />I was actually surprised the last time I was in Kansas City, MO, and went to Clint's Comics and saw they had completely eliminated their "adult comics" section. The Marxist/Feminists won again.Jeff Seilerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543690118315946039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-29980830562373074332016-08-11T19:36:03.249-05:002016-08-11T19:36:03.249-05:00Oh, Local Comics Shop! I get it now.
Gotta agree ...Oh, Local Comics Shop! I get it now.<br /><br />Gotta agree with Damian on this one - I don't think there's anything in my LCS "that is FLAT OUT NOT ALLOWED ANYWHERE else." I might be wrong - can you give a specific example of a comic book in comic shops that is forbidden everywhere else?Barry Deutschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08796981762797604817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-85249223616990620572016-08-11T19:06:20.798-05:002016-08-11T19:06:20.798-05:00Damian,
The controversies (or "controversies...Damian,<br /><br />The controversies (or "controversies") around the three books are so radically different, the reactions so divergent, as to make the comparison meaningless. Yes, I've read almost every issue of TCJ and am well aware of the contemporary writing regarding the three books. (I've also written for TcJs online incarnation, including two articles re: interstate anti-pornography laws that might give you some insight into my attitudes on free speech. Google my name and "Simpsons" to find them, if you're interested). Sean Rnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-89509374191839277832016-08-11T18:21:37.326-05:002016-08-11T18:21:37.326-05:00You can get all the phone books on Amazon but I...You can get all the phone books on Amazon but I'm quite confident they're not the remasters. Why? The publication dates are all given as several (or more) years ago.Tony againnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-81295067186718923472016-08-11T18:12:05.003-05:002016-08-11T18:12:05.003-05:00Sean: I don't know why you would think that my...Sean: I don't know why you would think that my mentioning three comics published at around the same time and discussed in the comics press precisely because they were controversial "incredibly misleading and inaccurate." Nor do I know what you mean by saying that nobody you knew "would have talked about the three books in the same breath," when all three were discussed as controversial works in <i>The Comics Journal</i> (at the time pretty much the official journal of the field). Would they have had to be reviewed in the same article? Dave himself demanded that "Friends of Lulu" defend <i>Verotik</i>'s creators or brand themselves hypocrites.<br /><br />Dave: Myself, I would say the punishments Michael Diana received were worse than his offense. "It's all just lines on paper, folks."<br /><br />When you say, "I think it's an intellectual failure to assume that we have arrived at THE TRUTH about anything", I assume you're including your views on women, god, the bible, etc. I agree with you on this point. Intellectual honesty requires you to constantly re-examine even (especially!) your most closely-held beliefs.<br /><br />When you say, "I think creator-owned, creator-controlled comic books will be seen as significant for the fact of their being unedited, unmodified personal expressions at a time when quasi-edited, quasi-modified was the best you could hope for," -- well, I hope so. I have said before that I think that will be your and <i>Cerebus</i>'s greatest legacy: proof that creators can tell exactly the story they want, limited only by ability and not by editors or bean-counters. But when you say, "Step back and look at your LCS: there's a lot of stuff in there that is FLAT OUT NOT ALLOWED ANYWHERE else in the Feminist Theocracy," I think either you are describing a reality other than this one, or comics shops elsewhere than the West Coast are very different. As you have said elsewhere that you don't visit comics shops, I suspect you're just manufacturing evidence to suit your thesis -- making it up out of your head.<br /><br />And you may want to believe that "my side" is a minority and losing ground, but I think the evidence shows that (as you often claim in other contexts) you are in the minority, and we are moving (slowly and glacially) the other way -- in a direction that I think is for the better.<br /><br /> -- Damian<br />Damian T. Lloyd, Esq.https://www.blogger.com/profile/15423589734839129158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-4795601882770299552016-08-11T17:52:51.664-05:002016-08-11T17:52:51.664-05:00"Step back and look at your LCS..."
At ..."Step back and look at your LCS..."<br /><br />At the risk of seeming ignorant, what does LCS stand for?Barry Deutschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08796981762797604817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-52698295972645876152016-08-11T17:28:22.214-05:002016-08-11T17:28:22.214-05:00Damian - I think your "grouping" of CERE...Damian - I think your "grouping" of CEREBUS with Jack Chick tracts and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion says far more about your own (unique? minority? substantial minority?) categorizations than it does about CEREBUS. Yours was certainly the consensus view back in the 1990s but I really don't think we "end up there" as a society (although that's still the only view allowed in polite society). How long it takes for us not to "end up there" (I'm guessing fifty to a hundred years after I'm dead) is open to debate. But I think the move away from your position -- by society in general -- is probably well underway. Incremental. Glacial, in fact. But underway.<br /><br />I'd say "we'll see" but I don't think we will. We'll all be dead! :) Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06502294606395720342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-53442402469262206702016-08-11T17:19:19.169-05:002016-08-11T17:19:19.169-05:00Sean R - You might be onto something with your &qu...Sean R - You might be onto something with your "status anxiety" comment. I don't really have anxiety about anything and certainly not about how comic books are viewed by the Big Bad World. It still throws me for a loop when a civilian in the 18-24 cohort accidentally happens upon the Off-White House going door to door. "You draw comic books? AWE! SOME!" <br /><br />Because there's that, but there's definitely the sense that comic books are lowbrow trash (so maybe it's more that the 18-24s tend to think that AL lowbrow trash is AWE! SOME!). <br /><br />Ultimately -- 100 years from now -- I think creator-owned, creator-controlled comic books will be seen as significant for the fact of their being unedited, unmodified personal expressions at a time when quasi-edited, quasi-modified was the best you could hope for. Step back and look at your LCS: there's a lot of stuff in there that is FLAT OUT NOT ALLOWED ANYWHERE else in the Feminist Theocracy. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06502294606395720342noreply@blogger.com