tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post892543629812601905..comments2024-03-28T05:23:01.707-05:00Comments on A MOMENT OF CEREBUS: Chester Brown: Reasons For Thinking That Sex-Work Is WrongA Moment Of Cerebushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02718525538144698138noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-1169693814572565662017-07-09T03:45:40.703-05:002017-07-09T03:45:40.703-05:00Jeff Seiler said: "...but I'm tired of th...<i>Jeff Seiler said: "...but I'm tired of the whole posting letters thing... Posting a weekly or daily blog, especially when one is transcribing, is very time-consuming and kind of a pain in the ass... I'm done with transcribing those letters, especially when most people don't want to read them."</i><br /><br />So this whole comments thread has been a complete waste of time then? Jesus H. Christ! Apologies to all AMOC readers who suffered through this. In light of this experience, I have changed the AMOC Comments policy and I will be deleting any uninteresting off-topic comments such as this in future. A Moment Of Cerebushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02718525538144698138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-54625869294949704712017-06-22T22:20:44.178-05:002017-06-22T22:20:44.178-05:00Mr. Brown said:
I don’t doubt that sex-workers c...Mr. Brown said:<br /><br /> I don’t doubt that sex-workers can genuinely like their clients. <br /><br />----I don't doubt that either. But I wonder if she'd like the guy if he wasn't PAYING HER MONEY FOR HER ORIFICE AND HER TIME?<br /><br />Oh boy, Chester quoted the following:<br /><br />Over twenty years you really get to know someone. […] He was someone I wouldn’t be having sex with had he not been paying me. But I cared about him deeply and genuinely wanted to know about how his life was going. […] Looking back I’d have to say it was definitely a type of long-term relationship. The only reason it ended was because I moved out of New York. He was a great guy. […] He was a client, and also a friend. Such things are more common than people might think.”<br /><br />---Whoa! She wouldn't be f**king him if he wasn't paying her. And he was a friend! Man, it sounds like classic rationalization. Sure he was a friend. Just y'know, a friend who paid her money to have sex with. I don't doubt that she cared for him, but deeply? I don't know, sounds like a bunch of romanticized hooey to me. Sure, it was a type of long-term relationship, the type where he pays you for sex!!! They weren't real friends. I believe she believes this, but people often choose to believe what they want in place of the harsh truth! I'm guilty of doing that, I think most people are.<br /><br />A Fake Name picking all the squares with street signs in them...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-88220162425594464882017-06-22T22:15:32.124-05:002017-06-22T22:15:32.124-05:00Chester doth write:
What I'm saying is that f...Chester doth write:<br /><br />What I'm saying is that financial concerns also cast a shadow over a lot of romantic relationships between people who have no connection to sex-work.<br /><br />----Yes, finances cast quite a shadow over many things. <br /><br />Chester keep writeth:<br /><br />there are good romantic relationships between financial unequals. If one can recognize that that can be true for romantic relationships, then one should also be able to recognize that there are good (non-romantic) relationships between sex-workers and clients who are financial unequals.<br /><br />----I'm not sure I understand this sentence. I agree, there can be good romantic relationships among financial unequals, in fact, I think most of them are between unequals in that area. Oh, I see. Good non-romance between a whore and her john. Certainly possible. I just doubt it.<br /><br /> Again, I'm going out on a sarcastic limb here but I'm going to say that nearly every man would rather have sex with a willing partner not dependent on outright paying her a sum of money for her specific time and action. It doesn't matter what the economic standings are between whore and john, she's only f**king him because he's paying her. I don't think that's a good relationship and not something men want.<br /><br />A Fake Name, I mean who else really?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-36814726112947252192017-06-22T22:10:15.424-05:002017-06-22T22:10:15.424-05:00Chester wrote:
The fact that some sex-workers can ...Chester wrote:<br />The fact that some sex-workers can exploit the emotional vulnerability of some clients doesn’t mean that all sex-work is wrong. There are people who pretend to be in love with someone in order to marry for money, but that doesn’t mean that all marriage is wrong.<br /><br />---Preying on someone's emotional vulnerability is wrong.. Despite what some may argue regarding the costs of a relationship (which Jeff Seiler touched on I think, way back in Part---who the heck knows---and I called it opening a can of worms. Anyway, marriage is different from prostitution.<br /><br />A Fake NameAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-73279508814510739522017-06-22T22:06:55.247-05:002017-06-22T22:06:55.247-05:00Chester wrote:
If such a guy has “real [romantic]...Chester wrote:<br /><br />If such a guy has “real [romantic] opportunities with” non-sex-workers while he's in love with a sex-worker, then he’ll likely still have real opportunities after he realizes that the sex-worker doesn’t love him. The two guys I mentioned who fell in love with sex-workers and were taken advantage of by them? Both of those situations happened several years ago. One of the guys hasn’t seen a sex-worker since then,<br /><br />----I note your examples but I still think my point stands. And as for the one guy, who knows whom he might have met if he wasn't seeing a prostitute. Speculation granted, but still...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-69665113766820076972017-06-22T22:05:12.429-05:002017-06-22T22:05:12.429-05:00Chester wrote:
who, through their interactions wi...Chester wrote:<br /><br />who, through their interactions with sex-workers, were able to learn how to be with women, and, as a result, were then able to attract girlfriends.<br /><br />---Interesting. I'm a bit surprised. I think this sort of man would be a minority amongst the clients.<br /><br /><br /> (There’s a story very similar to this at SexWorkClients.org but it’s about a woman who was having difficulty relating to men but wanted a romantic relationship. So she hired a male sex-worker, and her experiences with this guy <br /><br /><br />----I'm sticking to men purchasing sex with women; venturing into the female purchasing sex from men is a whole other ball of wax. <br /><br />A Fake NameAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-89873299145683110032017-06-22T22:01:01.865-05:002017-06-22T22:01:01.865-05:00Chester wrote:
Sex-work wasn’t responsible for his...Chester wrote:<br />Sex-work wasn’t responsible for his failure with women. He doesn’t feel “damaged” by sex-work — he’s glad it gives him a way to experience sexual intimacy despite the fact that he can’t find a girlfriend.<br /><br />---Prostitutes aren't responsible for anyone's failure with women. A lack of social skills, hygiene, diet and exercise and so on are contributing factors. Buying a prostitute for sure won't help someone learn these skills, which are learnable. Of course I realize some may never achieve this and so they purchase sex. I get that. Don't arrest them for it, look the other way; but I don't think it should be legal.<br /><br />A Fake NameAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-58812990687106753322017-06-22T21:57:29.525-05:002017-06-22T21:57:29.525-05:00Chester wrote:
The assumption here seems to be th...Chester wrote:<br /><br />The assumption here seems to be that, if sex-work didn’t exist, Type Four guys would be forced to better themselves and would then be able to get romantic partners, so, therefore, sex-work is bad.<br /><br />----They wouldn't be forced to. Some would improve themselves and by doing so become more attractive to women, some wouldn't. No one's being forced. But self-improvment is a good thing and prostitution is a shortcut to putting in the effort. Just like it's easier for a guy to stay in and watch pornography than it is to go out and attempt to converse and charm women.<br /><br />A Fake NameAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-62019974040031368002017-06-21T16:50:14.419-05:002017-06-21T16:50:14.419-05:00Wait, Jeff is "tired of the whole posting let...Wait, Jeff is "tired of the whole posting letters thing"? Then why bring it up way back in the first comment on this marathon thread? He's upset that he can no longer do something he doesn't want to do anymore? <br /><br />And: "no one has ever mistaken me for a little girl. Do you seriously want a picture!?!"<br /><br />We've seen one; even in full Carmen Miranda regalia, NOBODY would mistake our Jeff for a girl.Tony againnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-10647760232594241222017-06-21T15:25:52.156-05:002017-06-21T15:25:52.156-05:00Tim, I have always preferred "Just be a Duck&...Tim, I have always preferred "Just be a Duck", it will roll off your back.<br />Jeff, just be a duck.Ericknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-11919508398698671522017-06-21T15:24:12.449-05:002017-06-21T15:24:12.449-05:00Jeff said, "people keep bringing it up."...Jeff said, "people keep bringing it up." In this case, at least, Jeff, it was you who brought it up. That's not so much shaking it off as picking at the scab. I enjoyed the letters posts, and I imagine many other readers here did, but the decision was made, and quite some time back. It's back in focus now because YOU put it here.<br /><br />By the way, I think your suggestion that the "real" reason the feature was dropped was that the increasing antifeminist tone of the letters was a problem is ... what? a tad paranoid? I mean, really, Jeff, on a site specifically devoted to Dave Sim's work, mostly frequented by people well-versed in that work and the opinions embedded in it, you think that Dave's anti-feminism is a deal-breaker? Really, Jeff?Dominick Gracenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-39268781221591505482017-06-21T15:15:18.247-05:002017-06-21T15:15:18.247-05:00Hey Jeff,
"Just shake it off"
TimHey Jeff,<br />"Just shake it off"<br />Tim<br />A Moment Of Cerebushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02718525538144698138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-3086255817802609612017-06-21T11:47:27.139-05:002017-06-21T11:47:27.139-05:00Me: "If it's all about fulfilling Dave...Me: "If it's all about fulfilling Dave's request by publishing his letters and has nothing to do with giving you a platform, then why do you care?"<br /><br />Jeff: "Again, not giving me a platform. Posting letters from Dave to me (or anyone--would you all be writing this to Margaret {sorry, M.} --if she were posting letters?)--is because it was requested of me, by Dave. Or, technically, regarding this website, requested and approved, at least initially by both Dave and Tim."<br /><br />Does that reply make sense to anyone? To me, it just seems like word salad. And I hope I'm not telling tales out of school by revealing this, but a person who needs no introduction here--or, indeed, anywhere else, because this is a major celebrity I'm talking about--just said to me, over the phone, during the most recent of the very frequent phone conversations that I have with this individual, whose identity I refuse to reveal for the sake of propriety, even though it would totally blow all of your freaking minds, that he agrees with me. *cough*robschneider*cough*Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-79196451558667582602017-06-21T11:10:40.849-05:002017-06-21T11:10:40.849-05:00Erick-- Because he asked me to.
Jack--Again, not ...Erick-- Because he asked me to.<br /><br />Jack--Again, not giving me a platform. Posting letters from Dave to me (or anyone--would you all be writing this to Margaret {sorry, M.} --if she were posting letters?)--is because it was requested of me, by Dave. Or, technically, regarding this website, requested and approved, at least initially by both Dave and Tim.<br /><br />Tim-- Not whining, and no one has ever mistaken me for a little girl. Do you seriously want a picture!?! :)<br /><br />I did "shake it off", (although I prefer Katy), but people keep bringing it up.<br /><br />I seriously think that all of this kerfluffle has to do more with your distaste for the words that were reprinted, from Dave's letters as they became increasingly more anti-feminist, than they have to do with your distaste for me and my personal viewpoints. Which personal viewpoints I seldom, if ever, aired in those Saturday reprints of Dave's letters.<br /><br />That's the first, I think, that I've mentioned that, but I think that I am correct, Tim.<br /><br />You agreed to wake (or, reawaken) the Sim "dragon", in his letters to me, and then you got tired of its...(breath?)..(Benedict Cumberbatch tone?)...(insousiance?)...fire?<br /><br />Use YOUR platform as you will, Tim. Just please stop villifying me when I respond truthfully to your attacks on me.<br /><br />Kind regards,<br /><br />Jeff<br /><br />P.S.: I agree, Tim, and everyone else, that I *could* set up a blog elsewhere that might (?!?) even be attached to AMOC, but I'm tired of the whole posting letters thing. I think that, if he were in my position, Dave might agree. <br /><br />Posting a weekly or daily blog, especially when one is transcribing, is very time-consuming and kind of a pain in the ass. Tim is remarkably dedicated to it.<br /><br />I'm done with transcribing those letters, especially when most people don't want to read them.<br /><br />Wait for the books Dave puts out. Or, buy the online reprints from Kickstarter.<br /><br />So, there's your answer, guys (and, girl?), as to why I don't set up my own blog, away from here.<br /><br />Sorry, to those of you who still wanted to read Dave's words (not mine, but to me).Jeff Seilerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543690118315946039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-17349080895407614172017-06-21T09:47:50.456-05:002017-06-21T09:47:50.456-05:00Jeff,
Why do you think it is important to publish ...Jeff,<br />Why do you think it is important to publish letters from Dave Sim to you? Ericknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-50270547509284731362017-06-21T00:15:01.769-05:002017-06-21T00:15:01.769-05:00"I don't want to have a blog. Never did. ...<i>"I don't want to have a blog. Never did. Probably never will."</i><br /><br />Jeff,<br />If that's the case, please do us all a favour and stop whining like a little girl.<br />You have made your point multiple times now and it has become tedious.<br />In the immortal words of Taylor Swift, "Just shake it off".<br />Kind regards,<br />TimA Moment Of Cerebushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02718525538144698138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-56489608686151070952017-06-20T22:12:38.272-05:002017-06-20T22:12:38.272-05:00If it's all about fulfilling Dave's reques...If it's all about fulfilling Dave's request by publishing his letters and has nothing to do with giving you a platform, then why do you care?Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-42303164226931673092017-06-20T21:35:18.380-05:002017-06-20T21:35:18.380-05:00Dammit. "utilize" not "urilize"...Dammit. "utilize" not "urilize".Jeff Seilerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543690118315946039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-69835962943530202422017-06-20T21:27:39.486-05:002017-06-20T21:27:39.486-05:00Erick--I think you're missing the point. I was...Erick--I think you're missing the point. I was originally approached by Dave, asking me to post his letters or excerpts thereof on Twitter. Neither of us had ever utilized Twitter, but I quickly found that it was a terrible, untenable format for his letters. Thus, I approached Tim to see if he would want to run them here. He jumped at the chance, as he is always looking for more material for AMOC.<br /><br />The manner in which I posted the letters was, as much as possible, chronologically and with very little or no comment from me. I experimented briefly with posting both my letters to Dave and his letters of response, but most readers here didn't care for that format, so I ended that experiment.<br /><br />At no time did I attempt to use or urilize those posts as a "platform" for me or my views, despite what you and Tim assert, unless you want to call me having my name attached was a "platform". Since nearly anyone who posts anything here has their name attached, that would be a specious attack on me.<br /><br />At no time did I ever "blog" here, or anywhere, by posting Dave's letters. I don't want to have a blog. Never did. Probably never will. <br /><br />I was simply attempting to fulfill Dave's request.Jeff Seilerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15543690118315946039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-16395065785917201082017-06-20T20:26:13.150-05:002017-06-20T20:26:13.150-05:00Hi Barry,
My feelings on the prostitution question...Hi Barry,<br />My feelings on the prostitution question are similar to my feelings on the abortion question. I am morally opposed to both, and that will never change. But I do not think that the government should regulate what a woman can do with her body, nor do I think that the government should regulate what mentally stable, consenting adults should do with their bodies as long as no one comes to harm. My objections has always been and will always be based upon my own sense or morality, of which I make no apologies for. I posed the question about murder, incest etc. to show that there are some absolute boundaries to societies tolerance. That has certainly changed over time, with some things waxing and others waning. I can not predict if society will ever fully embrace whoredom. I can predict that I never will. Does that make me intolerant? Some may say so, but I believe that there must be limits to what we accept as a free society. Not everything goes. Not every indulgence is permissible. Some prohibitions must and should stay intact.<br />As to your question about safety if one of my family members was a whore. That is a no brainer and borderline insulting: Of course I would want any family member and for that matter anyone in general to be able to work in a safe environment.Ericknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-20767150170651644502017-06-20T19:54:23.677-05:002017-06-20T19:54:23.677-05:00Erick:
Thanks for your response.
Regarding murde...Erick:<br /><br />Thanks for your response.<br /><br />Regarding murder etc: I agree, I'm glad there's a consensus that these obviously harmful crimes are immoral.<br /><br />Regarding "I do not think that a mentally stable, consenting adult should be prevented from selling themselves sexually - as long as no one is harmed": I take this as meaning that you favor decriminalization of prostitution? If so, then we agree on the most important issue.<br /><br />Re: "But this prohibition has been in place across most cultures and civilizations for as long as man has been around. Why?"<br /><br />You could say the same thing about slavery, and husbands raping their wives, and the prohibition of homosexuality, and non-Democratic forms of government. The lesson I take from this is, just because a lot of civilizations have believed something, doesn't make it right.<br /><br />Why are things changing? I think the growth and spread of democracy and a widespread acceptance of civil rights - imperfect as it is - has a lot to do with it. People are simply more free to organize, and to question the foundation of moral beliefs, than they once were.<br /><br />A belief like "homosexuality should be illegal" or "sex work should be illegal" is easy to maintain when there's very little freedom for most people to publicly question those beliefs. When people are freer, then those beliefs that are not logically supportable might be undermined. More logical beliefs - like "murder should be illegal" - are not as vulnerable to being destroyed by a free society. <br /><br />More recently, I think the emergence of the internet has helped,too, by making access to communication (and the ability to organize) easier than every before.<br /><br />Re: What if a close family member of mine were a sex worker? If the person were happy and safe, I'd have no objection. But of course, "happy and safe" is more likely for sex workers if we decriminalize prostitution. So I think that if someone I loved were a sex worker, I'd be much more passionate about decriminalizing prostitution than I am now. <br /><br />The question of if Chester (and now, presumably, me) have moral centers seems like an ad hom attack, and also ridiculous. Both Chester and I have have been making statements based on moral principals since this discussion began; could we be doing that if we had no moral centers? I'd say we both have moral centers (by which I mean "central moral principals"), but that ours are not the same as yours. <br /><br />My turn to ask you a question: Suppose that a close relative of yours were a sex worker. For the purposes of this question, nothing you say or do can prevent them from being a sex worker. But you can choose whether they work in a world in which sex work is illegal and less safe, or a world in which sex work is legal and safer. Which world would you want for them?Barry Deutschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08796981762797604817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-40872976978543804722017-06-20T18:16:24.273-05:002017-06-20T18:16:24.273-05:00Are Erick's posts incredibly tedious? Yes. Are...Are Erick's posts incredibly tedious? Yes. Are they poorly written? In my opinion, absolutely. Does the thing where he keeps asking questions and then answering them make me want to slit my fucking wrists? I would have to answer in the affirmative.Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-6991323532649816602017-06-19T21:14:05.212-05:002017-06-19T21:14:05.212-05:00Forgot to add: Jeff can go pound salt. That is att...Forgot to add: Jeff can go pound salt. That is attacking low hanging fruit, but there ya go. Start yer own blog jeffo, or are you afraid no one would read it? Fear is a great motivator, come up with something compelling other than relying on a great creators work and your tangential connection to it, or someones else's blog about said creators work as your platform. Create your own damn platform and make it more than just about trying to grasp some shine from someone else, and maybe it will be compelling. Do you have it in you? Do you? Prove it. Otherwise, stop whining. I guarantee you this: If you create it and it is good, you will find an audience.Ericknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-89539220399049178892017-06-19T21:03:56.969-05:002017-06-19T21:03:56.969-05:00Dammit Barry,
I was going to stay out of this unti...Dammit Barry,<br />I was going to stay out of this until you posted. I will not comment on the "Should sex outside of marriage be illegal again", because that is an obvious Reductio ad absurdum. I will say this though, morals matter.<br />Whether they are mine, yours or someone else's. We may not agree with the professed morals of others, but having a moral compass, a center if you will, is necessary for any society to be able to survive. Prohibitions on: Murder, child abuse, incest. These are almost universal. Have they always been so? Of course not. Are they adhered to universally? Of course not. Are they routinely broken? Of course they are. But are they abhorrent to most society? Yes. Why? Because over time, we as a society have seen the how destructive they can be if left unchecked. Do I equate prostitution with those aforementioned? No. I do not see prostitution as an evil, or an abomination. I do not think that a mentally stable, consenting adult should be prevented from selling themselves sexually - as long as no one is harmed. Shocking? Why am I against it then? Because my morals see it as wrong. My moral compass can not reconcile my intellectual acceptance of a person being able to do as they please with their own bodies - caveats accepted, with the general degradation - and we can argue all day whether that is subjective or objective, of their chosen profession. There are some things we as a supposedly polite society, condemn. At times that is hysterically hypocritical. I am not perfect, society is not perfect. But this prohibition has been in place across most cultures and civilizations for as long as man has been around. Why? Notice I said prohibition. There are many abhorrent, but at the time sanctioned, things that humans have done, that we no longer do. And some that we continue to do. Times change. But there are some things that I hope will always remain. Chester has no choice but to offer up the most reprehensible of defenses - his statements of support for his mother or daughter to be sex workers, because otherwise he would be admitting that it is not a choice of profession that he would be proud having his mother or daughter to be a part of. Or maybe he really would be. In which case, the question is: does he have any moral center at all? What about you Barry? Would you be ok with a close family member being a sex worker? A euphemism for a whore? I am sorry for having phrased that question that way to you Barry. In our brief dealings with one another, I genuinely find myself liking you. My apologies if I have offended.Ericknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2837001751311078781.post-87942293411386861972017-06-19T16:49:49.366-05:002017-06-19T16:49:49.366-05:00I don't have any public policy views about pro...I don't have any public policy views about prostitution. I personally don't care if it's legal or not, just like I don't care whether heroin is legal or not - neither is anything I'm interested in. I think they're both bad ideas (for different reasons), but I leave questions of legality to the democratic process, which in the West is accelerating in a libertarian direction. I think this unwise, but I'm just one person. <br /><br />It becomes my business when people start leaving used rubbers or needles lying around my neighborhood, which is middle-class enough that they don't. NIMBY? You bet, but otherwise I'm "imposing my morality on others," and that's bad news.Tony againnoreply@blogger.com