Showing posts with label Chester Brown. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Chester Brown. Show all posts

Sunday, 5 April 2026

Untitled by Chester Brown and Dave Sim






untitled by Chester Brown & Dave Sim
Originally published in the Cerebus 1995 World Tour Book

Dave had this to say in the Cerebus 1995 World Tour Book:
And this to say when the Cerebus 1995 World Tour Book was reprinted as NOT the Cerebus 1995 World Tour Book:

And this appeared to sell the Cerebus 1995 World Tour Book:
This was published in Celebrate Diversity Sampler Collector's Edition by Previews and Diamond Comic Distributor.
Margaret has it as being by Dave, Gerhard and Chester Brown, but I think Dave drew all the characters...

And if you hit Free Comic Book Day in 2005, you may have picked up:

Why should you have?

Because #4.




And that's all there is to the story as far as I know...
___________________________
THIS:
Click for bigger...

Is on the eBays: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/127781131875 (Ends Thursday at 8PM (I presume ET, but possibly CST...).)


Living the Line's next Kickstarter has TWENTY-ONE pages of The Strange Death of Alex Raymond in it. These are pages Dave has drawn since the wrist started working again. 

And the Tyrant Kickstarter! 

Next Time: Mondays!

Saturday, 9 November 2024

Please Hold For Dave Sim 11/2024

Hi, Everybody!

Please Hold For Dave Sim 11/2024:

Quite possibly the last Audio:
segment, because I fucking hate Spotify, and think I've finally reached my limit for tolerance of their shitty "service"...

Videos:

Part 1: Dave remembers Jeff, And I pimp the new merch

Part 2: Tony wanted to know about the Remastered Guys

Part 3: Dave answers if there will be an Officially Licensed Cerebus Figure. And I show of Josh Even's Custom figure he's producing
I'm TRYING to get NECA's attention...

Part 4: Dave and I discuss Steve Peters and his second "go" at the Sparky: Cosmic Delinquent Kickstarter. My contribution to the book, and Dave's New contribution aside from the Variant Cover (available signed and unsigned) and the 8-page story he did with Steve. Then We anser Steve's question about Joe Matt's death. 

Part 5: Dodger wants to know if Dave will ever reprint his work from CANAR
Part 6: Travis had a question about something from Chester Brown's Mary Wept Over the Feet of Jesus

Part 7: Michael R. of Easton Pennsylvania and I answer Dave's question "What's it like living in a Swing State?"

Part 8: Dave answers just what the heck Larry got from Steve Hendricks
I personally did not see that coming...

Part 9: Dodger gets in another question. This time about Peter's Place
When in Scenic Lompoc, CA, eat at Mike's restaurant...

Part 10: We end with Michael R's question about Dave's favorite comedians
Next Time: After party!

Saturday, 15 July 2017

Dave Sim: On Prostitution & Chester Brown

Cerebus #275 (February 2002)
Art by Dave Sim, photo by Ken Sim

A (very occasional) word from Dave Sim now that he's working full-time on

You aren't, I don't think, going to win in any discussion with Chester Brown about the morality/immorality of prostitution.

In an... idiosyncratic?... society like our own, you aren't allowed to privilege your preferred form of fornication over any other person's preferred form of fornication. If Chester "gets off" on paying women for sex, that becomes the bottom line. Right next to "consensual". He wants to buy, she wants to sell. It's all good. End of story.

The terminology of fornication has changed to match the idiosyncrasy of subjective-perception-as-reality. In my youth it was called "pre-marital sex". That is, the presupposition was that everyone was going to get married and unusual people had sex before the ceremony. In 2017 that just seems weirdly quaint. Which I experience as moral erosion and most people (at least appear to) experience as progressiveness. All that matters in 2017 from our idiosyncratic society's perspective is what two adults agree upon at the moment. Their agreement, in and of itself, makes whatever it is inherently right.

If you ask me where our society's (reputed) epidemic of free-floating anxiety is coming from, I think that's an obvious place to look. If you don't think you're transgressing and you actually are, that's going to cause you a LOT of psychic stress.

I don't, personally, think that subjective perception determining the nature of reality is the case. In my view, the only valid viewpoint on fornication is God's and -- unless I'm misreading Scripture -- the verdict is "thumb's down" across the board. The notion that simple consent is the bottom line on fornication is, I think, a fabricated human conceit. The "deal" isn't, I think, between you and your girlfriend or you and your wife. The "deal" is between you and God, your girlfriend and God or your wife and God.

That is, I infer, it's a matter of fidelity to God. If you want to have a female counterpart in your life and have sex with her, and you don't want to experience severe consequences, then it has to be on what I infer are God's terms. You need to a) be a virgin when you marry b) commit to a lifelong marriage c) consecrate that marriage in the sight of God (i.e. in a church, a synagogue or a mosque). Otherwise you're transgressing. And that, it seems to me, is the actual bottom line.

[One of the reasons that I haven't participated in the discussion is that I'm way, way, way, way over HERE and all of you are way, way, way over THERE. All I could be is an AMOC troll on the way, way, way over THERE subject.]

When I realized back in 1997 -- after having read the Bible and the Koran for the first time -- that I don't have those qualities, I'm intrinsically, soul-deep NOT a husband...

[which I attribute at least partly to being the child of a child of fornication. My maternal grandfather impregnated my maternal grandmother sometime around March 6 of 1930 and my mother was born December 6, 1930. It takes a lot of chutzpah to call a daughter of fornication "Mary" in what was -- at the time -- a Christian society. My grandmother -- who was a devout Christian, attending church multiple times daily, in her youth -- never lacked for chutzpah. Years later I found out that my grandparents had their "shotgun wedding" on May 17, 1930 which means that I was born on their 26th wedding anniversary. The metaphysics of which -- see the emphasis on Cerebus' 26th birthday in the earliest issues -- seem particularly ominous in retrospect: I enacted their transgression starting around age 26 and didn't stop until I was almost 42; CEREBUS ran for 26 years, etc.]

…I opted for the only thing that seemed sensible to me under the circumstances: repentance (i.e. I stopped fornicating) and atonement (I haven't fornicated since 1998). In May of 2019 I will, God willing, have atoned for my previous 21 years of fornication and adultery.

Which, I'm sure, sounds absolutely crazy to everyone reading this, just as your ideas of what constitutes societal progressiveness sound absolutely crazy to me.

I wish everyone, including Chester, the best of luck with their fornication and adultery rationales/cover stories/realities on Judgement Day.

I'm sticking with my own. And looking forward to May of 2019.

Further Reading:
Dave Sim: "Avoyd Fornication" (January 2014)

Sunday, 9 July 2017

Chester Brown: Diogenes & Prostitution


Chester Brown, 2016 (via Montreal Gazette)
 
Diogenes & Prostitution
by Chester Brown
(first posted on Patreon, 8 July 2017)

My June 14th analysis of A Fake Name's reasons for thinking sex-work is morally wrong has been reposted on A Moment Of Cerebus. I have a bit of a follow-up to something I wrote in that post. I had written that some men, who have difficulty relating to women, are, "through their interactions with sex-workers [,...] able to learn how to be with women, and, as a result, [are] then able to attract girlfriends.” I just read an article about this. From the article:
“'I had one client who was probably in his forties and he had never had a sexual experience with another person because he had such severe social anxiety,’ [sex-worker Carmen Shakti] told VICE. After working with Shakti, he e-mailed her with positive news. He had met a woman whom he cared about and started his own sexual exploration."
It shouldn’t be a surprise that sex-workers can help this sort of guy. Sex, whether you pay for it or not, can be a healing experience if you’re having it with someone who’s understanding and compassionate, and many sex-workers are understanding and compassionate.

A-M-O-C regulars made comments that I could respond to, but I’d be quibbling. I think we’ve gotten as far in the debate as we can go without getting a bit repetitious. I’ll let A Fake Name and Erick and Tony Dunlop have the last word, at least for now. (They could probably draw me back in if they wanted to by writing something outrageous, but I suspect they’ll resist doing so.) Thanks again to Barry Deutsch for his contributions to the discussion. I had the pleasure of meeting Barry at T-C-A-F, and he gave me a copy of his How To Make A Man Out Of Tin Foil, which I enjoyed.

There’s some old A-M-O-C-related business that I’ve been meaning to get around to, so I can finally do so now. Back on March 14th, in response to something Carson Grubaugh wrote, I noted:
“I seem to remember that there are stories of Diogenes visiting brothels, although, flipping through my books on the Cynics, I can’t locate them at this moment.”
As I’m sure most of you know, Diogenes was an Athenian philosopher who lived from around 404 to 323 B-C. Since March 14th I’ve browsed through Robin Hard's Diogenes The Cynic: Sayings And Anecdotes with a bit more care and found this:
“One day […] when he had arranged for a courtesan to visit him and she was slow to arrive, he grasped his sexual organ in his hand and contrived an emission through masturbation; and afterwards, when the woman arrived, he sent her on her way, saying that he had already sung the marriage-song with his hand.”
(The marriage-song — that’s an interesting euphemism for sex.)

According to Hard:
“The Cynics were hostile to [courtesans] not because they had any moral objection to mercenary sex, but because [courtesans] were associated with luxury, expense, and refined sensuality."
Diogenes stood outside a brothel, shouting, "A beautiful whore is like poisoned honey! A beautiful whore is like poisoned honey! A beautiful whore is like poisoned honey!" Men entering the house threw him a coin or two to shut him up. Eventually Diogenes had collected enough money, and he too went into the brothel.
From the recently-published Book Of Greek And Roman Folktales, Legends, And Myths, edited by William Hansen:
“When someone was chiding Diogenes the Cynic philosopher, saying that he saw Diogenes coming out of a brothel, Diogenes said, 'Why, should I have been coming out of your house instead?’"
It would seem that Diogenes’ sex-life was confined to prostitutes, although he didn’t necessarily always pay for sex; there is an anecdote about how a famous courtesan had so much respect for him that she slept with him for free. (Which courtesan it was varies from account to account.)

I can’t resist returning to Hard’s book for two more Diogenes lines:
“Love is the occupation of the unoccupied.”

“When asked what is the right time to marry, he replied, ‘For those who are young, not yet, for those who are older, never at all.’"

Chester Brown has been writing and drawing comics and graphic novels since the 1980s: Yummy Fur, Ed The Happy Clown, I Never Liked You, Louis Riel, Paying For It, Mary Wept Over The Feet Of Jesus. You can help provide him with a stable source of income while he works on his next graphic novel by donating at Patreon.

Saturday, 17 June 2017

Chester Brown: Reasons For Thinking That Sex-Work Is Wrong


Cerebus In Hell? #4 (April 2017)
by Dave Sim & Sandeep Atwal

A Fake Name's Reasons For Thinking That Sex-Work Is Wrong 
by Chester Brown 
(first published on Patreon, 14 June 2017)

In response to my request, the individual who goes by the name A Fake Name has politely explained why he-or-she thinks sex-work is morally wrong and should be illegal over on A Moment Of Cerebus.

When I'm quoting other people in this piece, I'll do so in italics, but I'll put A Fake Name's positions in bold type, like this:
"Prostitution is damaging to men because it’s saying they can’t attract a woman on their own."
In relation to this proposition, we can broadly divide the clients of sex-workers into four types of guys.

Type One: According to sex-workers, the majority of their clients are men who are married or are in a romantic relationship. They’re not guys who can’t attract a romantic partner, they’re guys who have attracted one and yet want to have sex with sex-workers for a variety of reasons.

Type Two: Some guys can get romantic partners, but see sex-workers in-between serious romantic relationships.

Type Three: There are also guys (like me) who are not in a romantic relationship, who do not want to be in romantic relationships, and who prefer being with sex-workers. I've had girl-friends, so I know the difference between being in a romantic relationship and paying for sex, and I like the latter better. So it’s not emotionally “damaging” for me (and other Type Three guys) to pay for sex, quite the opposite.

Type Four: Of course, there are some guys who want romantic partners but can’t attract them and visit sex-workers as a substitute. But sex-work and sex-workers have not caused the problem there. The problem is the inability of those guys to attract romantic partners. Blaming sex-work for that is misplacing the blame.

(Not all clients of sex-workers fit into those four categories. For one thing, some clients are women. And some clients have unusual circumstances, like the guy who was a virgin, got cancer, and wanted to get laid before he died. His story, written by his twin sister, can be found at SexWorkClients.org under the name MsLeigh, posted March 1st 2017.)
"Instead of honest self-assessment and fixing things within themselves, [the clients of prostitutes have] chosen to pay for a fleeting illusion, knowing any orgasm and accompanying feelings are based on a financial transaction, creating a mental and emotional dissonance. In place of self-improvement, putting in the effort to be a better version of themselves, thereby increasing their confidence, achieving more in life and thus attracting women they’d want to have sex and relationships with, they’ve settled for a damaging shortcut."
The assumption here seems to be that, if sex-work didn’t exist, Type Four guys would be forced to better themselves and would then be able to get romantic partners, so, therefore, sex-work is bad. The thing is, Type Four guys want romance but can’t figure out how to get it. Even if all sex-workers magically disappeared from the planet, the majority of Type Four guys would still not be able to get romantic partners. I have a friend who’s a Type Four guy who pays for sex regularly. Believe me, he put lots of effort into trying to find a girlfriend before he resorted to paying sex-workers. Sex-work wasn’t responsible for his failure with women. He doesn’t feel “damaged” by sex-work — he’s glad it gives him a way to experience sexual intimacy despite the fact that he can’t find a girlfriend.

There are actually some guys out there who were Type Four guys and who, through their interactions with sex-workers, were able to learn how to be with women, and, as a result, were then able to attract girlfriends. (There’s a story very similar to this at SexWorkClients.org but it’s about a woman who was having difficulty relating to men but wanted a romantic relationship. So she hired a male sex-worker, and her experiences with this guy led her to feel “at home in my body, able to not just tolerate another’s touch, but enjoy and relish the sensation of skin on skin.” As a result, she was able to start dating and found a guy she’s now been married to for two years. Her story’s under the name Sheila and was posted on April 23rd 2017.) Far from damaging, as I've said before, sex-work often has therapeutic value.
"On top of that, men risk developing feelings for a prostitute, deluding themselves and missing out on real opportunities with the opposite sex. Unrequited love is bad enough without having to pay for it.”
It does happen that some clients fall in love with sex-workers, and such a client can imagine that his sex-worker loves him back. A lot of sex-workers wouldn’t lead on such a client, but some would — this happened to two guys I know. (Neither of them is the friend I mentioned above.) But these sorts of guys sooner or later figure out that the sex-worker doesn’t really romantically love them. (Having to continue to pay for sex is usually a clue.) If such a guy has “real [romantic] opportunities with” non-sex-workers while he's in love with a sex-worker, then he’ll likely still have real opportunities after he realizes that the sex-worker doesn’t love him. The two guys I mentioned who fell in love with sex-workers and were taken advantage of by them? Both of those situations happened several years ago. One of the guys hasn’t seen a sex-worker since then, but, even though he wants a girlfriend, he hasn’t found one in the intervening years, so I very much doubt he missed any opportunities for real love during the few months that he was in love with that sex-worker. The other guy has seen a few sex-workers since then, but not many. He’d like a girlfriend too, but knowing this guy well (he’s a friend) I can assure you that his inability to attract women has nothing to do with seeing sex-workers. I’m completely positive that he didn’t miss any romantic opportunities while he was in love with a sex-worker.

And this says nothing about the profession in general. The fact that some sex-workers can exploit the emotional vulnerability of some clients doesn’t mean that all sex-work is wrong. There are people who pretend to be in love with someone in order to marry for money, but that doesn’t mean that all marriage is wrong.
"While it’s quite possible one can switch from prostitute/client to a relationship, I’m skeptical since the beginning of the relationship comes down to: Would she have fucked you if you hadn’t pay her? […] I doubt any relationship in which the man directly pays the woman can ever be as legitimate as those who don’t, the obligation casting a shadow over any and all interactions."
I have a female friend (who is NOT a sex-worker) who has a well-paying job and, many years ago, was able to buy a relatively large condo. She met a guy who seemed very loving and affectionate. He didn’t make as much money as she did, but that wasn’t an issue for her because his personality seemed so wonderful. So they decided to live together, and he moved into her place. (Given his financial situation, he’d been renting a much smaller apartment.) They seemed like the perfect couple. Only years later did she admit to me that, as soon as he moved in, his personality changed — he became cold and unaffectionate when they were alone. She didn’t speculate about this to me, but I couldn’t help but wonder if he’d ever loved her. It seemed to me like he'd been pretending to be a certain kind of guy in order to get her to want him to move in with her. Once that was accomplished, and he was ensconced in a nicer setting (one in which he didn’t have to pay rent), he felt able to be his real, unloving self.

What I'm saying is that financial concerns also cast a shadow over a lot of romantic relationships between people who have no connection to sex-work. There are a lot of romantic relationships between people who are financially unequal. Even romantic partners who are financially equal can and do fight over money. Despite the experience of my above-mentioned female friend, there are good romantic relationships between financial unequals. If one can recognize that that can be true for romantic relationships, then one should also be able to recognize that there are good (non-romantic) relationships between sex-workers and clients who are financial unequals.

Aside from my own experience with Denise, I’ve read many sincere, heartfelt declarations of affection for their favourite clients written by sex-workers in various books and on the internet. I don’t doubt that sex-workers can genuinely like their clients. An example can be found in this interview with Annie Sprinkle
“I had this client I’ll call Samuel. […] I saw him steadily for twenty years [….] Over twenty years you really get to know someone. […] He was someone I wouldn’t be having sex with had he not been paying me. But I cared about him deeply and genuinely wanted to know about how his life was going. […] Looking back I’d have to say it was definitely a type of long-term relationship. The only reason it ended was because I moved out of New York. He was a great guy. […] He was a client, and also a friend. Such things are more common than people might think.”
Since Annie’s relationship with Samuel sounds very similar to the one I have with Denise, I know she’s right that “such things are more common than people might think."

It’s inconsistent to use financial dependence as a reason to dismiss real connections between sex-workers and their favourite clients while ignoring that financial concerns also affect romantic relationships. If one uses financial dependence to argue that all sex-work is wrong, one should be condemning all romantic relationships for the same reason.

Another thing to mention is that the financial inequality between sex-workers and clients often goes the other way. Many of the escorts I used to see (maybe all of them) made more money annually than I did (probably much more for most of them). When I first met Denise, she was certainly earning more than I was. An individual client, even a wealthy one, doesn’t really have much financial power over a popular sex-worker who already has many regular clients.
"What about the damaging effects on women? My experience is women are happiest inside a relationship if the man is perceived as worthy of their emotion and time. Sure prostitutes can compartmentalize clients from boyfriends/relationships but I still think they want to be loved. The romantic cliches exist because they are true and fundamental to how people are. There are always exceptions […] but most women want to be in a relationship. Brazen Lee said she’s a “…romantic at heart.” So even someone who sells sex for money still retains the primal drive to date, be in love. From a strictly utilitarian point of view, most men won’t be interested in a woman who has the level of sexual partners that a prostitute has. It may not seem fair, but I’m being honest, most men would be turned off. So, by being a prostitute she’s running the risk of ruining a shot at a real, longterm relationship.”
Sex-work is wrong because sex-workers are risking "ruining a shot at a real, longterm [sic] relationship”? Not all sex-workers want a conventional romantic relationship. Some of the ones who do want such relationships have been able to find them. Still, A Fake Name is right that sex-workers who want romantic partners have challenges finding them, but that doesn’t mean that sex-work is morally wrong — it means that our society has screwed up sexual values. A Fake Name states that people have “utilitarian” reasons for not getting romantically involved with sex-workers. From a utilitarian perspective, what is a romantic partner for? Sex-workers can be and usually are loving people. The prejudice against having a sex-worker for a romantic partner has nothing to do with their value as individuals or their ability to be loving partners and everything to do with an emotionally insecure reaction to the idea of a romantic partner having sex with someone else. This isn’t something to condemn sex-work for, it’s a reason to condemn our society’s immature sexual values. A change in our values — a change that would recognize and honour sex-workers for what they do — would make it easier for them to find romantic partners (male, female, or gender-fluid, depending on the orientation of the sex-worker). (A Fake Name seems to strangely assume that all female sex-workers are heterosexual.) (Would A Fake Name be making this argument about male sex-workers? And if he-or-she wouldn’t, does he-or-she think male sex-work is okay and should be legal?)

Since this is part of his-or-her justification keeping prostitution illegal, what A Fake Name is calling for here is social engineering. A Fake Name thinks that law-makers should recognize that, because most women supposedly want to be in monogamous heterosexual relationships, the law should force women to make choices that increase their chances of ending up in such relationships. For most sex-workers, engaging in the profession earns them more money than they could get doing any other sort of work. Sex-workers are aware that their occupation reduces their chances of finding a romantic partner. The ones who want such partners know that they’re balancing money against romance and that is a choice that should be left to them. No one else can say which they should be valuing more. Law-makers should not be trying to influence the choice by making one of the options illegal.

Stripped down to it’s essential point, A Fake Name is saying that sex-workers are making a mistake in choosing money (career) over romance, but these days lots of women who aren’t sex-workers are doing that. It’s not immoral for women to choose to focus on their careers at the expense of their love-lives.
"For women, accepting money for sex is saying you have no other way to generate money other than on the most base level of existence. That’s not mentally healthy in the longterm. […] Having sex, surrendering an intimate part of themselves to men who pay for it is mentally damaging in the long term.”
The assumption here is that sex-work is base and that all sex-workers would agree that it is. That’s not the case. Here’s ex-sex-worker Norma Jean Almodovar on the subject:
“On a scale of pain or pleasure human beings can inflict on each other, if murder, rape, and torture are the worst, certainly giving another person an orgasm must be among the best. I cannot fathom how one could think that making another human being feel good for a fee could be degrading or demeaning [….] I derive a great deal of satisfaction knowing that I’m turning some guy on”. [From the 1993 book Ain’t Nobody’s Business If You Do by the late, great Peter McWilliams.]
A sex-worker who agrees with A Fake Name that sex-work is base might find sex-work mentally damaging, but they might not. I’m sure there are people who clean toilets for money and consider it to be base and yet aren’t mentally damaged by doing that work. What mentally upsets people is going to vary widely from individual to individual. I heard a piece on the radio recently about the high incidence of violence that nurses face and how many of them are experiencing P-T-S-D as a result. The fact that some people in a profession will experience mental health problems as a result of doing that work doesn’t indicate that the profession as a whole is morally wrong and should be outlawed.

When there’s a stigma against a certain activity that causes mental health problems in people who engage in that activity, that doesn’t demonstrate that the activity itself is necessarily “base". As I wrote in Paying For It:
“Many gays prior to the sexual revolution experienced shame, depression, guilt, and disgust about being gay. That doesn’t mean that homosexuality is wrong, it means that, at a certain point in time, homosexuality was reviled, and many gays internalized the gay-negative values of the culture they lived in. Today, many prostitutes internalize the whoring-is-bad attitude of the culture we live in. That doesn’t mean that sex-work is bad.”
Counter-balancing the potential negative mental problems is the fact that sex-work can also benefitthe mental health of prostitutes, in large part because earning good money is good for one’s mental well-being. An article that addresses this is this one by ex-sex-worker Mitzi Poesner. From that piece:
“[C]ontrary to popular view of sex work, it is not a one way ticket to a breakdown. […]

“What drove me to sex work was a need to exist without aching poverty, to have time to see my many doctors, to work on being as healthy mentally and physically as possible, and to be able to claw back my life from the jaws of zero hours contracts and gaping overdrafts. You may see those things as separate to my mental health, but let me tell you: if you have never been poor you cannot understand the grip money holds you in. […]

“Sex work was messy, dirty, weird, confusing, and scary. It took me to places I wasn’t sure I wanted to visit again. But it also scooped me out of abject poverty and enabled me to start living life with joy.”
There can be other mental health benefits to being a sex-worker. In the interview with Annie Sprinkle that I linked to above, she says this:
“My johns adored and worshipped me, therefore they empowered me. When I was 18, 19, and 20, I had a poor self-image and needed attention. It’s hard for people who haven’t been prostitutes to imagine, but I think it’s often true.”
Back to A Fake Name:
“For society I think [prostitution] could damage civilization in ways I can’t quite explicate. A society with billboards advertising prostitution would be a place further down a spectrum of degradation.”
As Norma Jean implied in the quote that I reproduced above, consensual sex is generally good for people. A society that decriminalized prostitution would be a society in which more people would be having their sexual needs met. I think there’s a lot of unrecognized healing work going on in sex-work that benefits society in subtle ways.

As for the matter of billboards, there’s plenty of sexually suggestive advertising out there already. Using sex to sell sex seems more honest than using it to sell cars or beer. Such billboards wouldn’t have to be any more explicit than advertising already is.
"I don’t think prostitution should be legal […] but nor do I think the prostitution that Chester speaks of should be bothered by those in law enforcement.”
The easiest way to make sure that “the prostitution that Chester speaks of” isn’t “bothered by those in law enforcement” is to decriminalize sex-work between consenting adults. Why not? Especially since A Fake Name was not able to come up with good reasons for keeping it illegal. Let’s review A Fake Name’s reason’s again:
  1.  — Prostitution damages the clients who can’t attract a romantic partner.
  2.  — Clients fall in love with prostitutes and miss opportunities for real love.
  3.  — A sex-for-pay relationship can’t be as legitimate as other relationships since money can influence the sex-for-pay relationship.
  4.  — Women need romantic love and are less likely to get it if they’re prostitutes.
  5.  — Being paid for sex is base, so being a sex-worker it is mentally damaging.
  6.  — Decriminalized prostitution will “damage civilization”.
Reason One isn’t true. Reason Two is unlikely. Reason Three ignores the influence of money on other sorts of relationships. Reason Four is partially true, but societal attitudes are to blame for the problem, not sex-work. Reason Five is partially true, in that some sex-workers might feel that sex-for-pay is base, and they might, therefore, find the work to be emotionally difficult, but that’s offset by the fact that many other sex-workers do not think of prostitution as base, and many of them report that the work actually improves their mental health. Regarding Reason Six, A Fake Name honestly admits that he-or-she does not know what civilizational damage could result from decriminalizing sex-work.

A Fake Name doesn’t have strong reasons for thinking that sex-work should be illegal, but I appreciate that A Fake Name has made the attempt to explain why he-or-she thinks the profession is wrong, even if I don’t find his-or-her reasoning persuasive. And I admire A Fake Name’s civil (if sometimes exasperated and weary) tone throughout all of his-or-her comments on my posts. I hope A Fake Name has a sexual partner who brings him-or-her as much happiness as Denise brings me.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////

In the same comments section, Jeff Seiler writes:
“While it is an old, old joke, the statement remains valid: ‘You don’t pay a hooker for sex, you pay her to go away afterwards.’ "
Yes, it’s an old joke, but it has limited validity. I’m sure there are clients who, after their orgasm, want the sex-worker they’ve hired to go away, but almost any sex-worker will tell you that a sizeable percentage (probably the majority) of her-or-his clients would be only too happy to spend as much (unpaid) time hanging out with the sex-worker as she-or-he would allow.

According to Seiler:
“The culture of strippers and sex-workers […] includes a lot of damaged people."
It seems to me that we're all “damaged” in some way. Are sex-workers more damaged than other people? Not in my experience. People are at their most vulnerable — literally naked — when having sex. We’re more likely to see the damaged aspects and insecurities of our sexual partners — particularly of partners we’ve been having sex with for a while — than of people we meet in more superficial circumstances. Yes, I can see ways that Denise seems “damaged”, but I’m sure that I seem just as damaged to her. And she doesn’t seem more damaged than the non-sex-workers I’ve slept with. She’s actually a remarkably well-adjusted person.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Damien Lloyd writes:
“I do not think Chester is correct that someone practicing in a field will automatically know more than an academic who studies that field.”
I tend to think that real learning comes from doing, not studying, so that a cartoonist who’s created comics for many years will understand the medium better than an academic who’s never created comics but who’s read a lot of them and has interviewed creators. But I can imagine that a very intelligent and well-read academic could understand the medium better than a stupid and untalented cartoonist, so I concede the point to Lloyd.


Chester Brown has been writing and drawing comics and graphic novels since the 1980s: Yummy Fur, Ed The Happy Clown, I Never Liked You, Louis Riel, Paying For It, Mary Wept Over The Feet Of Jesus. You can help provide him with a stable source of income while he works on his next graphic novel by donating at Patreon.

Monday, 29 May 2017

Chester Brown: "Daniel Read"


Paid For It (2016)
by 'Chesty Matt' aka Joe Matt
(being a satire of Chester Brown's "Paying For It")


Daniel Read
by Chester Brown
(first posted on Patreon, 27 May 2017)

In response to my Sex-Work Pride piece (April 15th, reposted on A Moment Of Cerebus on April 17th), Sean Michael Robinson posted (on A-M-O-C) an anti-prostitution article by Daniel Read. I posted a short assessment of the article on May 1st, which was reposted on A-M-O-C on May 2nd. Read saw it there and responded in the comments section.

I noted that one of his sources — Melissa Farley — has been discredited. Read half-heartedly defends Farley — who is an academic — by putting down the source I linked to: Maggie McNeill. Read tries to invalidate Maggie’s perspective by noting that she’s not an academic. That is correct; while Maggie did receive a university education (and worked for a while as a librarian), she is not an academic. She’s a sex-worker and has been one for many years. Thinking that Farley knows more about sex-work than Maggie is just ridiculous. Farley’s interviewed some sex-workers, but Maggie knows the business inside-out and has many sex-worker friends (and fans) all over the world. Maggie is obviously going to be much more knowledgable on the subject than Farley. As for my charge that Farley has been discredited: once the courts start to dismiss an academic's “research” as being too biased to be useful, I’d say it’s fair to say that that academic been discredited. (Here’s the link again to Maggie’s piece on Farley, which includes a quote from Justice Susan Himel of the Ontario Superior Court on why she considered Farley’s work to be of little substance.)

Apparently Read worships academics and doesn’t recognize that they’re humans who are capable of being biased, making mistakes, and even lying. Do academics know more about the professions they study than the people who are in those professions? If an academic claimed to understand cartooning better than I do, I’d be sceptical.

As for Read’s other sources: point-for-point, Read’s statistics are countered by Maggie’s. Anyone who thinks Read’s partisan stats are convincing really should look at the other side’s numbers.

“Vapid” and “semantic” are the words that Read uses to characterize the idea that there’s a difference between legalizing sex-work and decriminalizing it. It’s not a semantic matter to prostitutes.

All of the legalization systems that I’m aware of have required that prostitutes register with the government for a licence. All people engaged in the work without a licence would be breaking the law. In the 1960s homosexuality was decriminalized in Canada — one didn’t need a licence to engage in gay sex, one just needed the consent of an adult partner. What if, instead of decriminalizing homosexuality, the government had legalized it, requiring gay people to acquire licences to have gay sex. Homosexuality was heavily stigmatized. (It still is stigmatized, but the stigma was much more intense in the 60s.) A lot of gays would not have wanted to go to a government office to admit their private sex-life to some bureaucrat. Could they trust that the law wasn’t going to change? Could they trust that the information would be secure? No, if the Canadian government had legalized homosexuality in the 1960s, most gay people would not have registered for licences, and so they would have continued to be criminals for engaging in consensual sex.

Sex-work is as stigmatized now as homosexuality was back in the 1960s. In regions where governments have legalized sex-work, the majority of the workers have refused to register for licences. The result is that a few workers are legal and the majority are still working illegally and are subject to the dangers of working illegally, including the greater likelihood of encountering violence.

Many years ago I asked Denise if she would get a licence if sex-work was legalized. Of course she said no. And why should she? It’s none of the government’s business what she and I do in the privacy of her bedroom — we’re not hurting anyone. The negative consequences of requiring prostitutes to have licences outweigh any potential benefits. Indeed, I don’t even see any benefits.

Decriminalization would allow any adult who wants to engage in sex-work to be able to do so without needing anyone’s permission. And it would allow anyone to pay such a sex-worker for consensual activities. In other words, sex-for-pay should be like all other sex — you should need the consent of your sexual partner (or partners) and that’s the only person (or people) you should need consent from. On the other hand, legalization requires sex-workers and their clients to also get the consent of the government. That’s a big difference, not an inconsequential one as Read seems to think.

Read chides me for ignoring the part of his article that dealt with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the supposed widespread “trafficking” of eastern European women that resulted. I ignored it because, from a 2017 Canadian (and American) perspective, it’s irrelevant to the subjects of decriminalizing sex-work and the morality of the profession. The majority of sex-workers in Canada are not from the former U-S-S-R and have not been forced into the work. Criminalizing ALL prostitution because a small number of prostitutes have been forced into it makes no sense. Police should endeavour to identify who has been forced into the work, punish whoever did the forcing, and leave willing sex-workers and their clients alone.

In my May 1st post, I wrote this about Read’s piece:
“Read’s article boils down to a familiar argument: because SOME prostitutes SOMETIMES encounter violence, ALL prostitution is wrong. Why is it wrong in instances where there’s no violence or force? Read avoids that question, no doubt because he doesn’t have an answer for it.”
Read avoided answering that question in his article, and he avoided answering it when I directly posed it, even though he saw that I’d posed it. I’d say that pretty much proves that he doesn’t have a rational explanation for his negative opinion of sex-work.

/////////////////////////////

In my May 1st post I asked the A-M-O-C anti-prostitutionists who think all prostitution is morally wrong to explain what’s morally wrong about about my sex-for-pay relationship with Denise. Most of the A-M-O-C anti-prostitutionists ignored the question. Perhaps they’ve gotten bored with the discussion, but I suspect that they don’t have an answer to the question. Only the individual going by the name A Fake Name addressed the question. He-or-she writes:
“[I]f you and her [sic] have found a way this works and are both happy, then I’m glad for you, as glad as I can be for someone I’ve never met. I’m not condemning your relationship.”
On April 20th at 19:38 A Fake Name wrote that “paying/charging for sex is pathetic/scummy.” On May 4th at 19:58 A Fake Name wrote that sex-work is “damaging in the long term for both men and women.” A Fake Name WAS condemning my relationship with Denise — he-or-she called it pathetic, scummy, and damaging. If A Fake Name genuinely thinks there’s no problem with my sex-for-pay relationship with Denise, then he-or-she is either contradicting him-or-herself or he-or-she has changed his-or-her mind on the matter. (And, of course, there’s nothing wrong with changing one’s opinion, but A Fake Name doesn’t seem to be acknowledging that that’s what he-or-she is doing.)

If someone wrote that gay people are pathetic, scummy, and damaged, almost everyone would recognize that person as a homophobe. If someone wrote that black people are pathetic, scummy, and damaged, almost everyone would recognize that person as a racist. A Fake Name has a prejudice, and so do the other anti-prostitutionists on A-M-O-C, and so does Daniel Read.


Chester Brown has been writing and drawing comics and graphic novels since the 1980s: Yummy Fur, Ed The Happy Clown, I Never Liked You, Louis Riel, Paying For It, Mary Wept Over The Feet Of Jesus. You can help provide him with a stable source of income while he works on his next graphic novel by donating at Patreon.

Friday, 12 May 2017

Dave Sim: Thoughts On D&Q


In 2004 the Comics Journal #260 ran a particularly mean-spirited article by Michael Dean about the longer-term prospects of Toronto-based indie-comics publisher Drawn & Quarterly ("Can Drawn & Quarterly Expand Without Expiring?"), citing the example of the 2003 D&Q book "Waiting For Food: More Restaurant Placemat Drawing Vol 3" by Robert Crumb, "one of its biggest gambles and subsequently biggest flops". In the letter below, Dave Sim offers D&Q cartoonist Chester Brown his thoughts on Chris Oliveros' publishing company.

4 September 04

Dear Chet:

I don't know if you were more than usually forthcoming on the subject of your relationship with Drawn & Quarterly when I was down there on Wednesday because of the recent exchange of unpleasantries between Michael Dean and Chris Oliveros in the Comics Journal...

(I hadn’t seen it yet -- yes, the Official Dave Sim Lynching takes place in 263, the issue after this one, so they might be on schedule for October)

...but it certainly does seem to bode ill. My own view is that what purported to be an exchange of viewpoints was mostly a ruthless exertion of peer pressure (on Dean's part) disproportionate to how big FBI actually is and a great deal is going to hinge on how Chris reacts to it. It seems obvious to me that Gary [Groth, Fantagraphics publisher] now sees Drawn & Quarterly as a threat in the same way that he saw Denis Kitchen as a threat. When he calls Fantagraphics "Publisher of the World’s Greatest Cartoonists", he tends to mean "exclusively" and is not a happy camper when Bob Crumb does a major project with Kitchen Sink or Chris Ware does a project with D&Q. I'm not sure how much the magazine is still listened to in these "conflict of interest" areas, but the arrogant tone was pretty astonishing even for someone used to being astonished by the Journal's arrogant tone.

Relative to your situation and Seth's, I would be concerned that Chris takes this to heart and decides that he has to imitate Fantagraphics' exponential expansion now that they think of themselves as a mainstream book publisher -- it's entirely true that you have to have a large seasonal output to stay in that particular game: the distributors' summer, fall, winter and spring catalogues. To me, the net effect of that is that individual attention goes by the wayside as the shark-like forward momentum takes hold: the key thing is to fill up the schedule -- “with whom” becomes secondary -- the people creating under contract are just urged to be productive at all costs. If you help plug the hole in the fall catalogue, you are expected to do the same thing next fall. This was one of the reasons that I gave you our dialogue on disk. If that’s the way Chris chooses to go, you’re going to need material on a regular basis to remain a high-profile Drawn & Quarterly player. The only other option for Chris, as far as I can see, is just to find what the Fantagraphics artists have in inventory that they’d be willing to have published, which is really more what D&Q looks like right now, to me: Fantagraphics Light.

If, on the other hand, Chris chooses to “stay the course” and be a small prestige publishing house, I suspect that things will begin to roll his way the bigger Fantagraphics gets. I suspect that things are already rolling his way, albeit slower and less noticeably than he wants them to (that’s just the way things are in that end of the market: the creators and audience are mostly graduated slackers, but when they turn on you, they turn on you. A large, mainstream, arrogant Fantagraphics is going to rub that whole group the wrong way and make Drawn & Quarterly No. 1, at least in terms of perception). I am suspicious of all of the efforts being made in the mainstream world at mainstream prices. Those Book Expos are not inexpensive. San Diego {Comic Con} is not inexpensive. I’m sure Peggy Burns [D&Q publicist] is not inexpensive. It’s certainly true that you and Seth are being discussed in real-world circles these days and I’m sure Peggy Burns is responsible for that in a lot of ways if not that she’s entirely responsible for that. I guess my question is: how important is that to you? It doesn’t seem to me that you have much interest in the mainstream world in the sense of being able to walk straight into a Toronto Film Fest screening or to get invited to glittery parties. But -- depending on what Peggy Burns is getting paid in salary, in the sense that you’re paying a large part of her salary -- that’s the area of reality your money is going to.

It seems to me that the only reason for a small publisher to go to these obscenely-expensive Expos is to drive up the price he’s eventually going to sell his company for, or to find a larger partner to merge with, neither of which strike me as being what Chris has been “about” all along. He’s got his distributor partnership (which I assume he found in the Expo environment somewhere), so now there doesn’t seem to be much point, apart from demonstrating to the distributor that you are out there aggressively pushing your authors. I thought it was really cheesy of Michael Dean to suggest that the reason D&Q wasn’t represented at Book Expo America was because of financial hardship.

Unfortunately, that one might stick in the way of perception and that would be a financial nutcracker to have to keep showing up at Expos that don’t do much good just to keep people from thinking that you can’t afford to go. Obviously Fantagraphics has bought into that perception as reality. As long as Gilbert and Jaime are getting paid, more power to them. But if that’s where Gilbert and Jaime’s money is going, instead of to Gilbert and Jaime, pardon me if I don’t stand up and applaud.

I don’t really have any suggestions apart from what I told you when I was down there visiting. You don’t really have enough information to know how your team is doing, the D&Q team that you’ve thrown your lot in with completely. I wouldn’t put myself in that situation, personally, which is a big reason I have no real world presence. I’m not part of any network. I’m just Dave. Cerebus is just Cerebus. If a mainstream book distributor called me up tomorrow and wanted 4,000 copies of each trade, I’d laugh in their faces. {Mainstream book distributors insist on very favorable returns policies. Very favorable to them.} That’s just way-too overextended in any one direction if I don’t have the company’s spreadsheet sitting in front of me (and even if I do).

Every Monday we find out how many books Diamond wants. Sometimes it’s $800 worth of books and sometimes its $6,000 worth of books. But I know that Diamond is going to pay for them and I know that Diamond is only going to order what [it thinks it] can sell based on the pace they’ve been selling at. I have no idea how Diamond is actually doing, but what I do know is that [it has] a solid track record of paying [its] bills. That’s all I really have to be concerned about.

I thought that was how Chris was running Drawn & Quarterly. In which case, as a Drawn & Quarterly artist, all you had to worry about was whether Chris paid on time. It was just one step removed from the self-reliance of self-publishing. What concerns me about the mainstream book-distribution trade is that these people make their money from moving books around, not from the books selling. So, they’re always pushing for more volume—pushing stores to take more books than they can sell and pushing publishers to publish more books than they can pay for—which (reading between the lines) is what I’m getting from Gary Groth, via the Journal, via Michael Dean’s reply. But the question remains the same: is Gary getting paid by his distributor? Are his contributors getting paid? My SPACE article/review in the Journal came out in May and I just got paid for it. 83 bucks. That doesn’t sound like someone bouncing happily along on a cash-flow cushion. I’m not sure how much Michael Dean’s answer was a “misery loves company” gig. “We have to pump out all of these titles to keep our distributor happy, so, Chris, you should too.”

I mean, if you really trust Chris to the extent that you seem to, and you think that that grant next year is really the thing that’s going to take care of all of his problems, and he can’t get the grant until all of his artists are paid off, there is an easy solution: [take] shares in the company in lieu of cash and sign an affidavit saying that this clears the slate. But the question then becomes, do you have that kind of trust and confidence in Chris that means you’ll take x number of shares in D&Q with the firm conviction that he will turn things around and the shares will ultimately be worth more than the cash value you traded for them? Conversely, you could just take a percentage of the money -- say 25 cents on the dollar and agree that you’ve been compensated equitably as long as Chris agrees to keep D&Q the small-scale operation that you signed onto. Essentially you would be forgiving a percentage of his debt in order to give him breathing room, but not to give him breathing room just so he can cut Bob Crumb or Chris Ware a cheque out of the money that you’ve forgiven him.

Much as I hate to say it, (and much as I hated to say it when we started discussing the whole thing with the degree of frankness you were willing to bring to it) I think you have to have a greater working knowledge of what it is that Chris thinks that he’s doing and some input on his decision-making. Obviously the Hernandez Bros. can’t take issue with Gary printing his {Bernard} Krigstein volumes, even though they might be a colossal mistake and money that would be going to Gilbert and Jaime is instead going to the printer of the volumes. The operation is just too big. But you and Seth and Joe are the ones who got Chris to where he is today and it was your money -- money that you were owed -- that went into the ill-fated Crumb book. If Chris had alternative sources of money to draw on, drew on them and paid you guys, then no, you wouldn’t have any cause for complaint. It would still be Chris’ solo play. But, since that doesn’t seem to be the case (there’s an understatement), I think you justifiably have a voice in the future of the company.

It’s a little uncomfortable offering these suggestions, but you did express interest in my opinion. Coming up on your phone call/discussion with Chris, these are the best suggestions I can make. I also have no problem if you want to fax this to Seth. Or Seth and Joe. Or Chris. Three more people hating my guts is no big whoop to me, Chet, you know that. It’s always been more important to me that actual issues be discussed than that I have a billion friends who can’t wait to buy me a beer.

To repeat, one of the reasons that I gave you the "Getting Riel" on disk was that I thought that if Chris was looking to seriously expand, it would help to have a Chester book (of some kind) on the schedule at any given moment, however large the schedule turns out to be, thus increasing the chances of whatever amount of money going through D&Q at any point, some of it would be coming to you. Likewise offering the jam story we did for reprinting. Likewise offering to do a dialogue on Ed the Happy Clown. If Chris is thinking of a large ambitious schedule, these are the kinds of things that can help flesh it out and keep you as a significant player at D&Q instead of just someone Chris can take for granted. Because you have the level of confidence you do in Chris and this might be the direction Chris is going, I thought I would make sure you knew that I consider this your material to do with as you choose.

But, to give you an example of how I view the situation, I wouldn’t offer Chris the Cerebus covers to do as a colour volume. Even though there is a market for it and Milo George (Fantagraphics no less) suggested that he thought it would be a great book. I don’t trust Chris to that extent as a publisher, even though I really want Drawn & Quarterly to be a success. The fact that it took me over a month and several phone calls to give the guy a free back cover ad -- well, that just didn’t sound like an on-the-ball publisher to me.

I also get resentful on your behalf that Crumb cost Chris all of this money (however indirectly) and you generated all this money (and attention!) and there still doesn’t seem to be any great outpouring of anything in your direction.

Best,
Dave

From "Dave Sim's Collected Letters 2004", a Cerebus Archive Kickstarter reward.