Over on the FaceItBooks, Drew Morris shared:
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| "All 30 Spawn 10 covers + 1 supplemental + 1 original art Cerespawn Cerebus sketchbook. 8 of them are signed by Sim." |
For the record, it's:
- Original 1993 Spawn #10
- A Cerebus #1 sketchbook with a Cerespawn sketch by Dave
- Spawn #10 Blank Logo cover
- Spawn #10 Deluxe Edition
- Spawn #10 Standard cover A "Gah! Color!"
- Spawn #10 Standard cover B "Gah! A Superhero Comic!"
- Spawn #10 Standard cover C "Hands through the bars"
- Spawn #10 Standard cover D "Hell Society"
- Spawn #10 Ashcan
- Spawn #10 Promotional Cover*
- Spawn #10 GOLD cover A "Gah! Color!"
- Spawn #10 GOLD cover B "Gah! A Superhero Comic!"
- Spawn #10 GOLD cover C "Hands through the bars"
- Spawn #10 GOLD cover D "Hell Society"
- Spawn #10 3D Lenticular Cover
- Spawn #10 Supplemental Book
- Spawn #10 Classic cover A "The HAUNT of Spawn"
- Spawn #10 Classic cover B "The FEAR of Spawn"
- Spawn #10 Classic cover C "The VAULT of Spawn"
- Spawn #10 Classic cover D "Weird Society"
- Spawn #10 Halloween Edition (AP, not one of the 54 copies sold on 10/31/2020, but it's the same damn cover otherwise...)
- Spawn #10 Grandma Edition
- Spawn #10 Classic "distressed" cover A "The HAUNT of Spawn"
- Spawn #10 Classic "distressed" cover B "The FEAR of Spawn"
- Spawn #10 Classic "distressed" cover C "The VAULT of Spawn"
- Spawn #10 Classic "distressed" cover D "Weird Society"
- Spawn #10 Sketch cover
- Spawn #10 Grandma Platinum cover
- Spawn #10 Platinum cover A "The HAUNT of Spawn"
- Spawn #10 Platinum cover B "The FEAR of Spawn"
- Spawn #10 Platinum cover C "The VAULT of Spawn"
- Spawn #10 Platinum cover D "Weird Society"
*Plus the "Proof" version of the Promotional cover:
 |
| I got #15 |
I really don't think these were publicly available. I think they were just sent to Dave and the rest of the "Cerebus team".
But I got one...
Anyway, with the two "different" Halloween Editions, that's thirty-two comics. Which is both Neat and Horrifying.
Friend to the Blog Bill Ritter (I recognize his name when I see it...) has some thoughts on that:
April 18, 2021
A few days ago I sent Dave Sim a fax regarding my unhappiness with Waverly Press.
Yeah, he forwarded it to the Waverly Press, and copied it to me. There was some back and forth. I'll show you the "forth" in a minute...
My closing stated: “I am in no way seeking any action on this. My intent in this letter is to mostly inform you that my previous enthusiastic participation in the Kickstarters will now be to avoid any that have Waverly Press participating. I realize in the grand scheme that my 1 or 2 thousand dollars from Cerebus 1 and Spawn 10 likely will not be noticed or missed; I do not have delusions my purchases command anything more than another number or a contributor name. However, in the event there has been a “there’s that Bill Ritter again…” awareness, I only mean to explain my absence in future Waverly Press endeavors and that this in no way is a diminishing of my appreciation of you.”
Dave called me, we chatted, he asked I send the fax to AMOC. Shortly after our talk, Waverly Press asked for backer’s input regarding their experience. I’ve decided not to provide the fax I sent because on reread it does not really explain why my experience with Waverly Press was not positive. Instead…here’s this.
I’ve backed a sufficient number of Kickstarter campaigns to be a “Super Backer”. The majority I’ve been delighted with the experience, a few I’ve been disappointed in the results or the campaign wound up being a fraud. My Kickstarter perspective is essentially: the creator establishes what the backer is backing and delivers on that without changing the terms of the agreement. As example…if there is a 10 copy limited edition of an item and that sells out the creator doesn’t add 10 more. If there are 15 tiers, the creator doesn’t add a 16th after the start of the campaign. The campaign is, for lack of a better description, a contract between parties: backers pick the contribution level; the backee delivers what the backers supported.
Where my unhappiness rests with Waverly are several items that are derived on the Kickstarter items but were neither included in or communicated during that same campaign. Particularly offensive is the 3D lenticular cover. Here’s why.
Had the 3D lenticular cover not been based on an existing Kickstarter cover I would not feel a betrayal of the Kickstarter campaign. As part of the Kickstarter, Waverly Press established a limited run of the Supplemental Book, presented that book as a Kickstarter add-on, and never provided communication that an alternative printing or version with same cover artwork would be available.
I would be less irate were the lenticular and distressed covers different and unrelated covers to the Kickstarter. That instead they featured new art, or were part of a new campaign, but ultimately were without any specific reference to the Spawn 10 KS. Waverly Press did not do that, and instead repurposed something that no backer was informed would be possible or to expect. At a personal level, I spent money in an effort to get every cover for Spawn 10 KS, and although technically I got every cover offered in that campaign, the additional covers made available taint the Spawn 10 campaign.
I appreciate others will find the above position absurd, or that cover artwork be damned it’s a different book, or that what might be in a Kickstarter stays in a Kickstarter but that’s non-binding for anything else imaginable. I respect these counterpoints.
However, my having spent time tracking via the Kickstarter and the IndieGoGo and the cerebusdownloads all the various versions of the covers available around during the campaign and buying into the tiers or add-ons to get a completed set, I now feel having purchased everything was under a false impression this was the complete Spawn 10 effort for this particular Kickstarter. The 3D (and distressed covers, to be honest) had never been communicated as future versions, and the appearance of these has left me with a significantly diminished experience with the Spawn 10 Kickstarter. Waverly Press disregarded backers’ perspectives and the agreement with the Spawn 10 Kickstarter.
As stated with Dave and earlier in this letter, I have neither an expectation for this to be “fixed” or to gain anything. I did get what I paid for on the Kickstarter, so I can mark that received. Nevertheless, I cannot shake that my Spawn 10 experience falls closer to a perception of a fraud than a positive experience. Fraud might be too strong, but in the minimum I have no trust for Waverly Press or their operating in a respectful manner to their backers.
For future campaigns, some suggestions:
The campaign is the source of truth. What is offered there is the sole source to get the items. If additional items are desired to resell, those are not the print runs or versions available to outside the campaign. Or, the Kickstarter campaign very clearly communicates what the overrun will be (e.g. we will print 50 additional copies to be sold via other means). Regardless, the terms the backers are buying into should be clearly articulated if the Kickstarter is claiming a limited “collector” aspect. If the campaign is not presenting as limited, then print whatever.
The campaign is unique. What is featured in the campaign needs to be special. If there is a KS and a general availability, the distinction between them needs to be stated and obvious. How Dave operated the Cerebus Archive KS and Diamond copies was a perfect example of making this distinction, both in communication and in execution.
Respect the backers and don’t “extend” the campaign to another source. The practice of Kickstarter ends and an IndieGoGo begins for another 3 weeks dilutes those aspects of the KS that were unique. Again, if the KS is presented as non-limited…run year-round campaigns; but if the campaign is a limited collectability, this practice is arguably misrepresentative and abusing the trusted relationship with the backers.
I cannot know (or appreciate) Waverly Press’ business strategy. I certainly do appreciate their efforts that do appear to support Dave, to get Cerebus into new readers and/or collectors, and to generate new interest. For that, good on them. As stated, I have no delusions my backing meant anything to the business strategy. But in the fool me once/fool me twice example, I’m inclined to avoid the potential of another disappointing experience from Waverly Press (regardless of how much my Cerebus passion might be).
Respectfully,
Bill Ritter
And Bill also included his original fax to Dave:
Aardvark-Vanaheim
Dave Sim
PO Box 1674 - Station C
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
N2G 4R2
Fax: 1-519-576-0955
Bill Ritter
Bill’s personal address was originally here; I’m not quite ready to share that with every AMOCian (sorry!)
Spoilsport.
And in the interest of full-ish disclosure, here is Dave's half of the conversation he had via fax with the fine folks at the Waverly Press about Bill's first fax. (I'm not including the Waverly Press half, since I don't have their explicit permission to run it, but I think you can infer what they said from Dave's responses:Dave!
Greetings and hello. Hoping you are well.
Since picking up Cerebus 26 off the stands at my Elmira, NY LCS I’ve had a steady consumption of as many things Dave Sim as I can get. Looking over at the shelf as I write this letter I see 5 different printings of Volume 1, and at least 2 of every subsequent “phone book” volume. I have 1 complete run of Cerebus and the reprints and a near complete 2nd run missing a handful of issues, as well as the Following Cerebus and the archives. I have each of the Kickstarter Archives and the Diamond versions. I have 2 copies of the audiobook and the cover treasury (I don’t know how I ended up with 2, actually…I digress). I began tracking down the various Dave Sim non-Cerebus works (like the IDW variant covers) in recent years. I have the various digital offering over the years from cerebusdownloads. The madness has gone so far as to my participating in Drew Ford’s Sam Glanzman Kickstarter for the Sim written story, only to lose all that money after Mr. Glanzman’s passing and Ford’s non-responses to provide an alternative option, and to commission a Neal Adams sketch as counterpoint to your sketch you commented being reminiscent of Adams’ style. Maybe a bit obsessive in some regards, but never any regrets or second thoughts.
With a bit of concern with doing so, I selected the Cerebus 1 and Spawn 10 “Dave Sim” sketch options – my appreciation of having a sketch conflicting with your wrist. Only your “dead hand” commentary compelled me to make the purchases. In my effort to collect, I carefully purchased into getting every cover version (to satisfy my completist streak). For both of these Kickstarters and related printings, I put forth a few thousand dollars.
This is where the letter turns from fan appreciation and enthusiastic Cerebus collector into disgruntled consumer. Had Waverly Press been forthright in their plans for all covers and versions of Spawn 10, and specifically regarding the post-Kickstarter 3-D lenticular version (and to some degree the distressed covers), I likely would have taken a different approach. I would not have sought out every version, the Indiegogo, the Halloween editions (and subsequent re-editions), the ashcan, and so on. I may have opted to not have the sketch or pursued some other tier. Waverly was not forthright, and I regret my Spawn 10 purchase more than appreciate.
I am in no way seeking any action on this. My intent in this letter is to mostly inform you that my previous enthusiastic participation in the Kickstarters will now be to avoid any that have Waverly Press participating. I realize in the grand scheme that my 1 or 2 thousand dollars from Cerebus 1 and Spawn 10 likely will not be noticed or missed; I do not have delusions my purchases command anything more than another number or a contributor name. However, in the event there has been a “there’s that Bill Ritter again…” awareness, I only mean to explain my absence in future Waverly Press endeavors and that this in no way is a diminishing of my appreciation of you.
I wish you well, and please know I hold much respect for you.
Wishing you the best, and regards,
Bill
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| That text bit is from the WP back to Dave. Only included here for absolutely necessary context. |
Okay, I had more I wanted to say, but I got a thing, so this has to go up now.
So, either more from me on Monday, or in the comments.
Rigamarole:
Cerebus in Hell? The Unethical Spider-Vark andSwords Of Cerebus In Hell? Volume 4
The Strange Death of Alex Raymond (ORDER NOW!), on Amazon! And sign up to hear about the Kickstarter before I post about it? (Wait, what?) And follow Living the Line on the FaceItBooks. (All the cool kids are doing it...)
Get ready for the new remastered Form & Void printing by buying Hemingway in Comics: https://www.booktable.net/ https://www.centuriesandsleuths.com/
Heritage has some interesting "Dave Sim" bits (Page from issue 5, and two (count 'em) TWO! Beavers strips!)
The AMOC TeePublic Shoppe is on sale:
Up to 35% off site-wide:
April 24
Up to 30% off site-wide:
April 28 – 29
Tell your fans! Remind them that everything will be up to 35% off -- that means $13 tees, $20 phone cases, $30 hoodies, and way more!
And if you still have money left after all that, Friend to the Blog Scott Warren is in a bad way, and one of his friends has set up a GoFundMe to help him out. (If you didn't want me to let people know Scott, you shouldn't have friended Ron on the FaceItBooks...) (He WAS gonna work on a quikie Cerebus Role Playing Game, so if you give a lil' sumthin', he might make it and thank you in the credits... (Or not. I'm not his keeper. Just his internet-ey friend.).)
Next Time: Oliver.
62 comments:
I have made my frustration with Waverly Press well known, I think. It started with that "Oslo" card that I asked about being available elsewhere (rather than having to back the Idiegogo just for an extra card) and never heard back, resulting in an unnecessary purchase of four additonal copies of Cerebus #1 just to get it. Of course, they *were* available later on their own.
Poor communication, opportunistic selling practices, all the worst aspects of the modern comics industry. Not really what I expect from 'Cerebus'-related projects.
I agree with this 100%. I was all in and along for the ride. Grabbed the announcement Ashcan, and was happy to support the KS and it's 14 different cover offerings (supplement incl). I based my pledge on that amount and then pledged a bit higher to have a few extras and spent above what I was wanting to, but felt I could swing it as that was it.... Then came the Halloween edition... then the make up Halloween... then the grandma Halloween... add a platinum Halloween in for good measure... Then came the add on blank sketch tossed in, and the sketch cover... Ok, I can still swing this and be happy I did... then came Indiegogo. :{ Hrmm. 4 more covers, not to mention everything that was supposed to have ended at KS now still available. Well, I have to get these as well to be complete... so stretch the budget a bit more. now at 21 covers + 4 new Indiegogo covers brings us to 25 total. Ugh, I've now spent way more than I am happy with myself, and way more than I would have, had they all been announced up front. As I would've just stuck to one of each knowing how many there were going to be. But, we were done, so live with it an move on. Oh, a 'promotional cover' very limited. Might as well go for broke and finish it all out. But... then came the 4 distressed covers at a high price. 30 total covers. Ah yes, there is also a 3D lenticular cover now. 31 total covers. (not counting the printer proofs) 31 covers when I had planned on 15. They turned a 15 cover campaign into a 31 cover ending campaign. And unless you were on top of your game the whole time, you probably missed a lot of those that came out of the woodwork. Although the quality of the books is great and I'm glad I was a part of it... I too am left no longer happy with this all. Not for the money I put in to it, or the constant tracking of different sites to make sure I didn't miss anything. I still worry it's not done and something else is going to pop up last minute. This one broke me. Mentally and monetarily. I won't be back in for something like this like I was this time. Can't trust that it will be only the books they mention at the beginning.
Oh for heaven's sake. Someone sees a revenue source; they offer "product" they think will sell. If you want to buy it (and can afford it), buy it. If you don't (or can't), don't. It's not some kind of morality play.
Jeez, get a grip, people.
@Tony
If they had simply offered a product, we wouldn't be having this discussion. They purposely strung people along, adding additional product, knowing full well they would be able to rope in a few more people on some high-ticket items based on the in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound mentality.
If they had said at the beginning "There will be 31 covers over the course of this campaign and afterwards. Here is how and when they will be made available.", there would be zero issues.
Wait, let's see if I've got this right. If someone offers a consumer product, and it sells better than they expected - they are not allowed to expand the product line because...why?
Tony, my complaint is based on their using Kickstarter and there being backers. Backers that were brought into a campaign based on an understanding of what that campaign would offer.
Had Waverly simply published this and offered via Diamond or some other mechanism, I am not a backer but rather a consumer.
Had the additional editions not been directly based off the kickstarter, I also would not have had any problem. But these additional were offered with same/similar covers as those I had backed and were promoted and tied to the campaign.
Had Waverly in the context of the original campaign offered $395 3D and $395 distressed and everything else, I would have backed the campaign knowing what I could and could not participate in. I may have gone all-in...I may have thought 32 covers too much. But, I would have backed the campaign with complete understanding of what I needed to do to back it.
I cannot agree with your "see a revenue..." when the basis of that revenue was selling a group of people to buy a specific something in a specific time...and sold that investment with no intent of honoring the original campaign terms.
I doubt my above will change your mind, any more than you mine. Thought I would reiterate my complaint.
"I doubt my above will change your mind, any more than you mine."
And on that, we are in complete agreement!
Hi Matt!
I just sent you an email with the email I sent to Waverly Press.
PS--- I agree with Bill Ritter about everything he has written about.
Oh by the way, the original Spawn 10 had 2 covers. 1 newsstand version. This one has the bar code on the bottom left. The other was the direct edition. No bar code on the bottom left. Just saying for the complete completists
Michael,
You just have to twist the knife, don'tcha?
Manly
Happy to support the Kickstarters, but personally, this whole thing just became too complex to follow...
Tony D. is missing the point that crowdfunding campaigns for a collectors' market are not the same as offering a product to a general market.
I think all y'all collectors are crazy; why would you buy another copy of the same book just 'cause it has a different cover on it? But I watched the campaigns and read the comments, and I side with the collectors on this one. They had an expectation that was not met. As Dave has abandoned the general audience and refocussed on prying as much cash as possible out of the "True Front-Facing Believers" subset of his audience, this market must be listened to.
As near as I can gather, Waverly Press is inexperienced and didn't understand comics collecting, crowdfunding, or publishing. "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." But they should have done their research.
-- Damian
I own, read, and appreciate Spawn #10 precisely because Dave Sim wrote the script. It's a hellava swell comic book.
A remastered, decolorized, Sim-ified with extras reprint that Dave can make a few sheckels on? Sure.
[CLICK]
Variant Covers? Four? Huh. Yeah, why not? These look cool!
[CLICK] [CLICK]
Oh, shit! No, wait. It's like...wait...one, two, three...sixteen!? Sixteen variant covers? I mean, hey! Signed and numbered. Gotta love signed and numbered. So, I guess...
[CLICK] [CLICK] [CLICK] [CLICK]
...wait, what! Jesus Christ Mellencamp!!! Thirty-two!? And a Halloween. And a Super-Secret Halloween. And a Double-Super Secret Halloween. And, uh, I dunno, Before Spawn #10? The Making Of Spawn #10? Spawn #10 For Leftys? It's enough aleady.
[CLICK] [CLICK] [CLICK] [CLICK] [CLICK] [CLICK] [CLICK] [CLICK]
What's that? No, I hadn't heard. 3-D, you say? Well, that's...that's...yeah, that's a thing. Sure. Lotta dough, huh? 3-D comics sure are cool. Or even just 3-D covers. I guess maybe if I could get someone to buy from me the other thirty-two or forty Spawn #10 covers that I just bought then I could afford to buy the rediculously overpriced lenticular Spawn #10 cover.
Or...hear me out, here...maybe I'll pass.
Honestly, it was pretty clear from the start that this round of funding was marketed toward the Spawn crowd much more so than it was the Cerebus crowd, and rightly so. I, a Cerebus crowd member, waded into these variant waters with more curiosity than trepidation, imagining that I would likely spend too much and be slightly disapointed in myself afterward. In that I was prescient. It all felt a little dirty, but it was all consensual, and no hard feelings.
Personally, I would be happy to see a return to Cerebus Archive Portfolios kickstarters. Or other remastered content. I'd rather spend $300 on a remastered hardback Cerebus phonebook than 30 variant covers of "The Night Before" issue remastered and bell-whistled. <---[you're welcome]
Peace!
Michael Hunt
Hitler did nothing wrong, but Waverly Press sure did.
Synchronicity time: As I've stated here before, a couple of years ago I started rereading all of my comics, because...well, they've been just sitting in my basement for the 20+ years I've lived in my house.
By this time, I'm deep into the S'es, and what should be coming up on the next couple of days' agenda, but the only issue of Spawn I ever bought!
Any guesses as to which issue that might be? (And yes, it's the one without the bar code.)
Um ... the one Neil Gaiman wrote? The most successful of the four guest-star writers!
-- D.
Nice one, Damian.
Was I wrong? Was it the one Frank Miller wrote? Damn! It was Frank Miller, wasn't it?
-- Damian
Now that you mention it Miller, I'd argue has had more of lasting impact on the medium as a whole than Gaiman. Yes, Gaiman has had more success outside of comics, but I don't know of many writers in the comics field or artists in other disciplines who have followed his example. There have been dozens of writers, artists, even filmmakers, who have tried to follow Miller's lead, to vary degrees of success.
Hell, even Erik Larsen has Miller as the guy. https://twitter.com/ErikJLarsen/status/1386021144831041538?s=20
All of that's to say that you're probably right, Damian.
Back on topic: I would suggest that Waverly increase their social media presence in general. It might help the company get a firmer grasp of the wants and needs of their customers, and perhaps go some ways towards lessening the chances of what has happened with the SPAWN 10 campaign occur again. Just a thought.
My 2 cents - I’m not big on variant covers but I was happy to dip in on these with new art from Dave, the gold and platinum options at the outset were also fine given they were a known quantity from the start and the supplemental bits (which I guess is the common theme here). I’d also grabbed the limited run ashcan and I didn’t have an issue with the Halloween edition that Dave put up on Cerebus Downloads. I thought that was a fun/spontaneous idea - the ‘grandma variant back on the KS only highlighted that the other version existed and that turned into (what I think was a bit unfair) pile of grief for Dave; yes he’s looking to make money with the short term Halloween sale but he wasn’t looking to create any problems here. Probably important to note that I hadn’t gone in on the sketch variant - so I wasn’t buying all in with everything, so I’d already pulled up stumps.
I think where it goes off the rails is the post-KS stuff on Indygogo (or whatever it’s called). The 4 new retro covers looked great and I grabbed those, that was the first time that I may have felt a bit unclean with my purchase though. When I saw the 3-D (just gotta say.... GAH!... 3-D!!!) and the distressed retro colours. I had already tapped out mentally and the price made it easy to stick to that decision. I’m good with that but I do sympathise with those that have felt compelled to go on with purchasing these. Also on the WP side I don’t think there was an intention to exploit, just provide something new and unique- it’s just the failure of the print run reduced the number of viable issues significantly.
I’ll keep backing these things - especially the hardcover prints of the books. I don’t regret any of the Spawn 10 books I bought but I would be looking at what Turtles 8 offered and if it was a similar layout I’d probably only be backing the standard/gold/platinum package of covers, a post-KS Indy release might not get my attention next time - but buying in on 12-15 covers hopefully makes these worthwhile doing.
In spite of everything they are fun - now hopefully my package finds it’s way out of Sydney, tracking indicates it’s been there since April 16!
Ok, after doing a little digging, I would clarify my original suggestion by saying that Waverly should BEGIN to have a social media presence in general. Visited their web page and all three of their social media links sent me to Squarespace's social media accounts.
Unless Dagon and Co. own and run Squarespace, I would say that Waverly has little to no social media presence online. That's a choice, obviously, but not a wise one on Waverly's part in my opinion.
Dion, you bring up a good point about the print run for the lenticulars. The original print run was meant to be 150 copies, if memory serves. But ish happened forcing Waverly to just release 50 copies. Made me wonder if the steep price was Waverly's way to recoup some of the lost revenue from having to trash 2/3 of their own product.
If Dave is "listening" here, or someone is informing him, I want to reiterate to you, Dave:
Whatever gross amounts of money that Waverly Press has made for you or given to you, are not worth your having sold your soul to a startup corporate entity.
Remember all of those essays about Marvel and Decease?
I first became your "Cerebus Super Fan" (and thanks again for the plaque, which hangs in a prominent place) not because (just) of the book, but because of your unrelenting views about comics and storytelling. And real-life truth.
Waverly, IMHO, is looking to be a cash cow, creators be damned. Sure. No doubt. You will get some loonies, or, bucks.
Even, a lot. But, do you really want a lotta bucks from an opportunistic startup company that will probably keep 90%?
I am seriously underimpressed by Waverly. Their business model, thus far, has seemed to be "Let's get what we can and go as long as we can and then head for the hills."
So, you know, good (what do they say?) fucking luck.
In topics that are non of my bidness...I wonder why Dave got into the relationship with Waverly and whether the terms are favorable. Aside from fulfillment and idea-making, Dave is the creative source. Waverly brings no creative input that Dave did not already create.
They do bring publishing into areas that Dave has not really desired (hardback edition, look at a billion trading cards, etc.). If their purpose is a shield (Aardvark-Vanaheim would never print a hardback, but this other fella...what cay you do?)...well, that's a somewhat ridiculous approach anyone over age of 15 sees through.
Hopefully Waverly is not an equal partner, but more along lines of Image's approach of ~10% to handle the logistics. But aside from packing and mailing, A-V has done publishing (and does with CIH) quite capably.
Hope Dave's getting the gross, less expenses and a minor handling fee.
Milk all that milk, losing a few customers now won't matter it's a one off opportunity to milk as much as possible now. The cost analysis for how much they milk now versus how much they lose later has been done and it makes sense to go hard now. And I suppose it does make sense to sell as many as possible if people keep buying, but it just looks ***ing stupid at this point.
This KS reminds me of those door to door salesman stories, where they rip off the old lady by adding on extras because she's confused.
My main point I want to make, it's bait and switch. "Baited" into getting final day offering as it will be the last and final ones to make the set, then "all of them that make the set" ends up being increased straight away on Indiegogo and in the end on 4 different occasions, not counting the ebay ones. That's the "switch" and not just once but every time up until the KS books are in everyone's hands (the KS full set that was never the full set but people went for thinking it was because they didn't know there will be a bait and switch). You can also add the worse packaging (expecting all bag and board, I guess 2 per bag and extra cards count as premium backing boards these days, shame about those corners but had to switch that up to cut some costs).
Opportunistic bait and switch? Yes, certainly. But whether it is deliberately planned, malicious, accidental (uh, nah) isn't for me to say as I don't know, but one thing I know is you simply don't do business with a company or person that ends up saying one thing and doing another, again and again, certainly regarding the things you give them money for.
Another Aardvark
As the Aardvark Turns
If a voice from Waverly were to join this conversation it would be immensely helpful for all parties concerned, I think.
On the most recent cerebusoverload eBay auctions, I've sent Waverly a message via eBay (4 days ago) and directly (yesterday) ~~ with no response.
Doesn't bode well for me as a customer, buyer, fan, investor, and collector.
Steve
Building off of what Damian said upthread: I don't share and only vaguely understand the completist mentality, but given that the limited edition approach to the High Society reprint and other related products reflects that the business model is focused entirely ON the completist market, it's only going to cause trouble if things are done in such a way as to leave people feeling left out. It's one thing to have announced a super-limited run in advance (such as the Prime Minister package) and just through the luck of the draw some people who wanted were able to get and some weren't; that's the definition of 'limited edition' right there. But obviously the crowdfunded approach to the printing is a massive headache to track and even be fully clear about WHAT'S being funded.
Full disclosure: my real desire here is to have a full run of 'Cerebus' done in remastered, well-printed hardcovers, and I'd love for this to all work out so I can get that. Nothing else is of interest to me as a collector (at least not enough to spend the kind of money or time that seems to be required). So when I propose the following, bear in mind that I get nothing out of it: Waverly SHOULD open a dialogue with the aggrieved supporters and work out something for them and them only, as a make-good for the Spawn misfire, and then down the line just be very, very upfront about everything that's going to be part of a given offering so that people don't feel like they've been misled.
While the first Waverly edition I'll be acquiring is the Regency HS, from what I've heard/read so far from other sources, the quality is excellent. For anyone on the outside, the alignment with the needs of the collector market and the even (let's face it) weirder needs of the Cerebus fan base is clearly a learning process, and I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt to get it right.
Brian and Damian:
Steve Englehart.
(AFAIK he never wrote an issue of Spawn, but he should have; for my money he's far and away the best writer of superhero comics (faint praise there, but damn, he was good) of the last 50 - 60 years.)
Well said on the last paragraph, Mr. Kopperman. As an anonymous commenter said recently we Cerebus fans are “cray cray”, we are subset of a subset of a subset, to use Damian’s terminology. Learning curves should be a given when catering to us. So, I am also inclined towards giving Waverly the benefit of the doubt. I still contend that someone from Waverly should ride into the herd here.
Speaking of herds, Tony my metric for success for a comics creator in my back and forth with Damian was based on one idea: influence on field of choice and on the public-at-large. I don’t dare say that my knowledge of comics is deep, let alone expansive for that matter. So, Englehart (He did some issues of Batman with Marshall Rogers, no?) might be the guy for me, once I read his work.
But, I think one would be hard pressed to find a greater example of a creator who has influenced the modern comics field and popular culture itself to a greater degree than Frank Miller. Many creators- McFarlane, Dillon, Ennis, Quesada, and etc. - for example - have drawn deep from his well. Even filmmakers, from Burton to Nolan, Rodriguez to Snyder, have been inspired to create work that either honors Miller’s style and/or are based closely on his work. I’d argue that Alan Moore had more profound effect on comics writing and that Dave had a more pervasive effect on the form of comics as whole and on distribution. Nevertheless, those two didn’t come close to Miller in terms of a impact and legacy on both the comics field and on the public-at-large. He’s the Orson Welles of the medium, scoffed at by the new bloods for his supposedly quaintness, but still commanding everyone else’s attention. Even the sportswriter Howard Bryant geeks out on old Daredevil comics.
Artists and writers are still trying to mack Frank’s flow to varying degrees of success. Really it’s based on this question: how many artists (use that in the broad sense of the term) were inspired to create by an artist. To me I see more inspired by Miller than by anybody else, but I am open to being challenged on that claim.
Ok, sorry to veer to far off topic. Hope this discussion continues in a productive manner.
( now I am gonna have to learn more about Mr. Englehart. Tony, if inclined, throw some recommendations my way. Thanks. )
My only "metric" is how much I enjoy reading someone's work!
As for Englehart, hmm, where to start:
The Avengers, early 70s (not sure of the issue numbers; I think he started in the late 1teens & continued into the 140s)
Captain Marvel #34 - 45 (or so - drawn by Al Milgrom) - one of the few mainstream superhero plotlines in which psychedelics play a major role, and NOT as a cautionary tale
Green Lantern, early - mid 1980s (drawn by Joe Staton); again, I don't recall the exact issue numbers, but I want to say early 80s (issue number, not year) to mid 90s? Really fun stuff, more lighthearted than the O'Neill/Adams days!
Yes, his Batman stories, with Rogers art, is some of his most famous work, but not my personal favorite - very good, nevertheless.
This is all just the tip of the iceberg. There's also the Coyote series he did for the (I think) creator-owned "Epic Comics" that Marvel did in the early 1980s.
Thanks a million, Tony!
To be more on point: So, there are or were 50 copies of the lenticular cover being sold (I actually thought it was a different cover version of which 100 copies fell off of the back of the truck, but whatever), at $395 each (!).
Even without S&H (and we all know that "handling" is corporate-speak for hidden revenues), that comes to just short of $20,000.
So, what percentage of that $20,000+ goes to Dave, what percentage goes to Todd, and what percentage goes to WP?
Show us the numbers, someone.
Hi. Rich from Peoria here.
I can't say I'm happy with the Spawn Kickstarter for the reasons stated. (I am also well versed in the workings of Kickstarter having backed 300 successful projects.)
I can't say I'm more than just a little unhappy though.
I quickly ran into cover fatigue.
The thing I am most unhappy about is the chase cards. I would have like to see (and expected) that the complete set would include every card. I would have bought more covers...correction...tried to buy all covers to get the trading cards.
I like the small posters and ephemera. Pins and odd stuff.
Proofs and sketch, etc.
Thirty covers? I saw nine tops. I really liked the way Dave did his Halloween special cover. Forgetting the particular angst of the bugs in the process the pilot run always brings out.
Spawn is not my thing so I was suffering distaste anyway. And it seems like everything MacFarlane is involved turns into a lawsuit or fight with friends.
Sooooo.....if I get to influence future projects: please do simple campaigns, set and locked at launch with reasonable stretch goals (if its that sort of campaign).
I did not respond to the Waverly survey seeing it as a "dragon lurks" situation which wouldn't allow me to answer the proper questions...those being hidden/withheld.
No appetite here for 30 covers of Cerebus #2. Speaking of #2...I doubt the demand for these. It's like those Walking Deads. Who is buying those I wonder when I get to that page of previews.
I think the Regency edition was handled well. And I am feeling that the hardcovers are in a generally good place (at least as of yet).
Not mad. Feel a little burdened. Hate to have had to mix in with Spawn. And I fully realize Spawn 10 is a giant money grab. I expect that I'll jump on the Spanish-language Kickstarter. Though if the opportunity is there, shouldn't the aim be for a Spanish-language distributor that can hit all of Spain. I mean Spawn 10 never having appeared. Potentially placed to enter Spanish-speaking Latin America. (America and Canada uses Mexican Spanish, while large segments of the Latin American markets see it as a dialect of a dialect/garbage Spanish. My friend from Panama says mean things about the Spanish of my ethnic Mexican neighbors.)
Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.
Rich
I say nine cover tops. Not "saw".
I dunno, Jeff - it's a big ask to see how the profits of a given private business venture are split. I'm honestly not sure if it's even ethical. While we all contribute to the AV coffers in various ways (Patreon, Kickstarters, purchases, etc.), once Dave - as AV executive - has vetted a partner, there's no obligation for anyone to disclose any financial info. Factor Todd in to the Spawn stuff as well.
If Dave or Waverly choose to disclose, that's certainly their option, but your intimations that Waverly is taking advantage of SOMEONE here, or that Dave somehow isn't earning fair value on his contributions and intellectual property are unfounded. Especially if Dave - who usually sounds a dire Cassandra warning about anything he sees as squirrelly - hasn't said anything about feeling cheated.
It's only some customers, and those customers are largely upset because of unforeseen roadbumps that are going to naturally arise when philosophically unaligned channels - traditional printing, the comics collector market, and crowdfunding - are all sharing a taxi. As someone also said upthread, don't assume malice where mere human error is more likely.
A more exhaustive list of Steve Englehart-authored comic books...
Even better, Tony. Thanks.
And unlike me, Steve actually knows the issue numbers...
Well, Dave K., if you look back above, Sim has politely expressed some support for the complaints to WP.
I don't agree that it may be unethical to ask for business numbers. One can always ask, in a free country. One will probably never get an answer, but there are some companies who do publish such numbers. And, of course, shareholders of companies receive something like that on an annual basis, although I doubt that WP has shareholders.
My point was that WP seems to be doing a money grab, cynically targeting Cerebus fans who are well-known for being completists. I am clearly not alone in that view.
Also, as far as Dave being somewhat reticent to complain, all of this is complicated by Todd's involvement, and he has apparently stayed silent thus far.
I have a call in to Dave about my interrogative post. We'll see what he has to say, if anything.
Jeff: The asking of how the profits are split is a non-sequitur to the problem at hand, because the issue isn't people getting upset that they've lost the opportunity to support Dave, but because they (as Bill labels them, the backers) felt that the terms of their financial support for this project on Kickstarter weren't truthful about what they would get out of it.
The question of "how much does Dave get out of it?" is certainly a good one, but if you're going to ask that you'd also have to ask how much of Waverly's plan to release additional cover options and gimcracks after the fact Dave was aware of in advance and whether or not he approved them.
The real question at hand is: are the people who supported the Kickstarter under one assumption due any kind of additional benefit? The secondary question is: do Kickstarters for the Waverly offerings really align with the nature of the product and market? My own answers are yes to #1 and no to #2. The Kickstarter seems to be in place of pre-orders, and I think pre-orders would be the better way to go. I think you would also agree with that, on reflection, since I recall your own beef with Waverly was in how the rollout of the Regency Edition left you unable to get the version you actually wanted.
Ask yourself, absent of any grudge or perceived injustice: what's the end goal for all this? For me, it's to finally have library editions of the novel, and to support Dave both in preserving the work and in being able to have the remainder of his retirement and passing be comfortable on his own terms.
Dave K.: The kind of financial disclosure you label as possibly unethical was demanded by Dave Sim in his "negotiations" with Fantagraphics to reprint Cerebus a few years ago. I think the public thread is still up at the TCJ website; does anyone have link to hand?
-- Damian
Indeed, it is Damian. http://www.tcj.com/dave-sim-responds-to-the-fantagraphics-offer/
Damian: I recall that Dave requested the negotiations be open - and you and I have actually discussed the Fantagraphics offer before, as to how it related to the SDOAR printing - but (absent me scanning through over 700 comments again, though thanks for the link, Brian), neither Dave nor Kim ever mentioned any financials, at least not in specific figures that I can recall. the conversation got hung up on what Dave wanted to try - a straight printing of Form & Void - versus what Fantagraphics was looking to do, being a remastered High Society, complete with critical commentary.
And I may be reading into it, but I got the impression at the time that Dave's ultimate goal was to dissuade Fantagraphics from printing the books, rather than encouraging them to do so, and really was more about an ongoing philosophical disagreement between Dave and Kim/Gary as to the ethical considerations between publishing oneself and working with a publisher. The Marvel work-for-hire contract was also something Dave opened up for public view at the time. So all of that was part of Dave's ongoing philosophical championing of artist ownership and self-publishing.
But even if hard numbers were bandied about in the TCJ forum, it's still an apples and oranges situation: Dave was proposing to make the negotiations public with Fantagraphics IN ADVANCE of signing any contracts, while all of the contracts (and by extension, negotiations) with Waverly have already been signed. So what I said originally holds - while Waverly and Dave both have the options to disclose the financial terms of the agreement, they have no obligation to do so.
I don't know enough about contracts to know if Dave has the right to officially disclose that on his own, though I doubt it'd be a legal problem. That's where the ethical considerations come in: should one party in a business contract publicly disclose the terms of the agreement if the other party(s) don't want for it to be shared?
Dave K.'s first paragraph in his comment a while back about the collector's mentality, makes the same point I did, only better.
I might agree with Brian W. that, of the four guest-star writers in Spawn, Frank Miller has had the greatest effect on comics. He's another one, like Dave, who didn't invest stuff but deployed the tools well and certainly popularized them. He's one of those chiefly responsible for the grim 'n' gritty tone that took over all comics, and for the replacement of thought balloons with first-person caption narration, just off the top of my head.
Alan Moore was the best comics writer at the time; Watchmen was the only graphic novel on that Time magazine list. And Neil Gaiman was probably the best writer in comics, to judge by his critical and commercial successes in and out of the field.
-----
Dave had a more pervasive effect on the form of comics as whole and on distribution
-----
Oh, he did not. Stop repeating this zombie lie.
It's a bit interesting just how little influence Dave has had on comics. Part of this is due, as I've said before, from Dave following the spirit of Eisner, where the mainstream comics field still follows the spirit of Kirby. Dave is known mostly, outside this blog, as a cautionary tale.
Didn't Englehart's "Coyote" begin in Eclipse magazine?
-- Damian
You're welcome, Dave. Happy to be of service to you and to Damian.
Damian, I was going full Falstaff on your most successful writer bit earlier in the thread. Trying to go the extra mile with that inch of thread you supplied there.
In all seriousness, thanks for seeing my point about Miller. Joking aside, I still see him as the shadow - no pun intended - most are still trying to follow in and without the comics field, at least where any material concerning superheroes are concerned.
Maybe the tide is turning Gaiman's way now. With the audio adaption of Sandman, American Gods a success on TV, and the netflix deal to adapt Sandman he might just set the bar for a new generation of creators, like Miller did 35 years before.
Not lying about Dave there (BRAINZ< BRAINZ, BRAINZ!), It was my opinion. I may be willing to concede that Dave has not had so lasting an impact on the form itself. Many have tried to ape DKR, I can't think of anyone in the field who has tried to pay homage to READS or LATTER DAYS. I think of Layman, but like you said, he has tried keep his praise of Dave faint at best.
I might chime in on Dave's impact on distribution later. I will leave with the comment that without CEREBUS there might never have been STRANGERS IN PARADISE, MILK & CHEESE, BONE, maybe even SAVAGE DRAGON and SPAWN.
(How bout that?! I stumbled my ass back onto the topic.)
"...and for the replacement of thought balloons with first-person caption narration..."
Also a motif with an obscure Canadian cartoonist name of Foster, as I recall...
The Shakespeare of comics?
Okay, good point, Dave K. Did Dave know about and approve the 32 covers, especially the lenticular version? Personally, I think not. Does he like it? I think so. Would Dave charge $thousands to his readers like WP is doing? I don't think so. Dave is scrupulously ethical. WP is proving not so to be.
The Shakespeare of AMOC?
Got-Damn youse guys are chatty-kathies...
Anyway, if this doesn't answer any questions/complaints:
https://momentofcerebus.blogspot.com/2021/04/crossing-overload.html
Let me know.
Manly Matt Dow
Hello Rich from Peoria!
(And anyone else who had issues with tracking down all the Spawn #10 cards.)
I have extras of most of the cards (With the exception of the Halloween card) so if you email and let me know which cards you're missing, we can work something out. (And by "work something out", I mean I'll just send them to you, unless it's the Cerespawn lenticular, then we'll have to ACTUALLY work something out.)
I also have four COMPLETE sets of the cards, three of which I'll be putting on eBay, if anyone wants ALL of them in one go.
Also, if anyone has an copy of card #3 from the Cerebus #1 campaign, I'll trade ya.
My email is:
benscerebusemail@gmail.com
I said:
"...and for the replacement of thought balloons with first-person caption narration..."
Also a motif with an obscure Canadian cartoonist name of Foster, as I recall...
...and just now realized I missed a key point: "first person." Oops.
Jeff: I don't think you can define "passing forward a cost to the consumer" as a lapse in ethics. Waverly didn't advertise the cover option for sale until after the things were available, at which point they set the price in such a way to recoup their costs. I personally feel the cost was too high and the offering was too silly to warrant all the hubbub, but I feel that way about almost anything related to the collector market.
And again, this is all unimportant to the main question, re: stated Kickstarter terms versus after the fact offerings. That's it. That's the only issue.
Dave K., I have *always* passing on the cost to the consumer as, at least, borderline unethical, mainly because companies almost always add in extra costs to cover their overhead and to goose profits. Try to get any mainstream business to show you their actual costs and actual profits, and you will be laughed out of the room.
If WP is still around two years from now, I will be amazed. AND, it will be so because they will have significantly improved their business practices.
Jeff: Waverly is a high-end limited-edition publisher, used to catering to a market of people for whom a $500 art book is (in theory) pocket change. I'd gather that business model works for them, and they'll be fine. What's more likely is that they decide that the minefield of the comic collector market isn't ultimately worth their while, and they'll get out of the Cerebus business. What's happening here is very Twitter-y: a couple of people have a complaint with some basis, and then other people with their own agendas will amplify until it's better business sense to simply move away from that market.
If the lenticular covers don't come close to selling out, then their disengagement from the Cerebus community will come sooner rather than later, and that'll be the end of the dream of hardcover Cerebus. But Waverly will be fine.
But a quick check of the site shows that out of fifty lenticular covers offered, they have two remaining. TWO.
Waverly is quite right not to engage directly in any 'debate.' Because if it were a debate, they already won.
Dave K. distorts the issue unduly. There are more than "a couple of people" complaining. And Waverly "won" by fucking up two-thirds of their print run?
I thought the Direct Market was a business environment for cowards, but Waverly and their ilk are going even further with their reliance on crowdfunding.
Dave's influence on distribution, Brian W.? Practically nil. He never sought to place his work in any market other than the DM.
-- Damian
Damian: Though I didn't intend 'a couple' literally (as in one or two), without a doubt, my use of it read as dismissive. I was engaged in a kind of reverse hyperbole, which of course ALWAYS WORKS AS INTENDED IN A COMMENT THREAD. Oy. Sorry.
Regarding the Spawn lenticular cover: my reference to the 'winning' of the debate here was in response to Jeff's assertion that WP would be out of business within two years. From a purely business standpoint, selling out or nearly selling out of a product even at an absurd price shows that they know how to make whatever lemonade they can - and correct If I'm wrong, but WP isn't actually the printer, but the publisher. There are various different perspectives on who should absorb the cost (and a whole bunch of B2B stuff we don't know): the publisher, the printer, the artist, or the consumer. The smaller the scale of an undertaking, the more likely it is that IF the various parties involved can recoup the cost from the consumer, they will.
The it's not clear from my other comments above, I'm not making any value judgements on that. As I've been restating (and quoting, here):
1) Are the people who supported the Kickstarter under one assumption due any kind of additional benefit?
To which my answer is "yes". For any number of reasons, with the two primary ones being that it's in the best interest of all parties - WP, the consumer, and Dave - to do so.
2) do Kickstarters for the Waverly offerings really align with the nature of the product and market?
To which I said "no." Most people who sounded off here view it as a kind of double-dealing, and there's justification for that view. Based on what Matt reported the other day, it seems like WP has reached some kind of adjusted strategy on that (though this is a little opaque): "they're gonna probably stick to comics and trading cards with no 'frills' for future campaigns." I read that as saying they ARE going to continue with Kickstarters for these offerings, but they're going to be a lot more careful with the language and (maybe?) circumspect with additional covers and such. I'm very much in favor of them forgoing the Kickstarters entirely and just doing a standard pre-order model, but clearly there's a serious amount of money involved and that's difficult for either WP or AV (being cash-strapped) to quit cold turkey.
For the completist:
There is also at least one contemporary foreign edition of Spawn #10, published in 1993 by Battle Axe Press in South Africa. The cover has a "Suggested For Mature Readers" and publisher logo on it.
Good luck finding one of those!
Steve
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