"Astoria and Gerrik sitting in a tree..."

Hi, Everybody!

Mondays!

So, Dave and I are doing Please Hold For Dave Sim on Thursday. If you have a question, get it in to momentofcerbus@gmail.com by Wednesday night when I send the fax. And Dave and I will answer it. Any question. Like this one from Anonymous:

The Cirin family tree is weird. Who is Sir Gerrik's father and what was he thinking? And how did he...never mind, some men will just do it with anything, or he was tricked, or drugged, or, gag me, wanted too.

If that is too gross, a more serious question is was Astoria ever actually pregnant with Sir Gerrik's child or did she have an abortion as was hinted at in the story? Was she just playing games with Cirin knowing the game was deadly or just "effing" with her in a vicious mother/daughter spat? Did George R. R. Martin read Cerebus? Looking back at it now, the whole Cirin/Astoria spat was very Game of Thrones-ish.

Serra-Cirin is one of the best comic book villains ever and still scary to this day.

Anonymous

I think Anonymous is talking about this bit from Church & State I:

Ah! So as Anonymous asks: "Was Astoria ever actually pregnant with Sir Gerrik's child or did she have an abortion as was hinted at in the story?"

I'ma pretty sure Anon. has forgotten that Dave answered this...in the Cerebus storyline. Specifically in Reads:

And:

Serna the Aardvark gave birth to a human son. When she stole the human Cirin's identity, she "adopted" Gerrik as her son. Who was the father? Well, Cirin DID engineer a society where alcohol was free, and there was no "Last Call"... 

Next Time: Jen's got a question?

The Origins of Astoria

MARGARET LISS: 

A few years ago I scanned all of Dave Sim's notebooks. He had filled 36 notebooks during the years he created the monthly Cerebus series, covering issues #20 to 300, plus the other side items -- like the Epic stories, posters and prints, convention speeches etc. A total of 3,281 notebook pages detailing his creative process. I never really got the time to study the notebooks when I had them. Just did a quick look, scanned them in and sent them back to Dave as soon as possible. So this regular column is a chance for me to look through those scans and highlight some of the more interesting pages.

Last week in What Happened Between Issues 20 and 21 we look at pages 70 and 100 of Dave Sim’s second notebook used in the production of Cerebus. We’ll continue to look at this notebook this week with two pages that show Dave’s first sketches of Astoria.

Wait a second, this isn’t Astoria. Well it doesn’t really look like her.

Notebook #2, page 66

On the page prior to the above one, Dave had written a bunch of dialogue for the character who would become Astoria. On the above page he had this to say about it in the digital High Society collection: 

“Mary Astor doing Brigid O’Shaughnessy in THE MALTESE FALCON and Cerebus. . .instead of Humphrey Bogart doing Sam Spade. “I’m begging you for your pity. I can tell by your face. . .I can sense that he’s done something wrong. . .” NOW I had something to work with. But she looked too much like Katherine Hepburn. Without Spencer Tracey there is absolutely nothing funny about Katherine Hepburn.”

On the next page we see Astoria as she appears in High Society.

Notebook #2, page 67

Dave said this about the page:

“I got the look I needed pretty quickly. She had to be a serious character but she also had to be able to chew the scenery as Brigid O’Shaughnessy when required.”

Reach the Top of the Tower

MARGARET LISS:

A few years ago I scanned all of Dave Sim's notebooks. He had filled 36 notebooks during the years he created the monthly Cerebus series, covering issues #20 to 300, plus the other side items -- like the Epic stories, posters and prints, convention speeches etc. A total of 3,281 notebook pages detailing his creative process. I never really got the time to study the notebooks when I had them. Just did a quick look, scanned them in and sent them back to Dave as soon as possible. So this regular column is a chance for me to look through those scans and highlight some of the more interesting pages.

Dave Sim’s 10th notebook used in the production of Cerebus covers Cerebus #87 to 95 and it had 115 scanned out of the 200 pages stated on the notebook’s cover. We last saw some pages from it in March of 2020’s Nobody Feeling Brave Today? In that entry we saw pages of Roach climbing up the tower holding Bunky in his left hand and getting riled up against Epop. Those were pages 8 and 9 of the notebook. The fun continues on page 10:

Notebook 10, page 10

While there is a big 88 issue box number on the top of the page, the two page thumbnail just a bit over halfway down on the page covers Cerebus #87 pages 18 and 19, aka Church & State II pages 732 and 733:

Cerebus #87 pages 18 and 19

While the six long panel layout stayed the same, the content of the panels changed ever so slightly to include more Astoria. Some of the final dialogue is around the thumbnails on the notebook page. And going over to the far right of the page is a thumbnail for page 20 of Cerebus #87:

Cerebus #87 page 20

The final layout changed from 4 long panels to three panels, giving up two panels of seeing Astoria looking over the edge of the tower to a panel of Astoria reaching her hand down to a Roach who is almost within touch. Then the panel of Roach pushing Astoria out of the way is still there, just mirrored in the final page. We even get the Roach’s dialogue at the top of the notebook page with a larger sketch of the panel.

Trail of the Albatross

MARGARET LISS:

A few years ago I scanned all of Dave Sim's notebooks. He had filled 36 notebooks during the years he created the monthly Cerebus series, covering issues #20 to 300, plus the other side items -- like the Epic stories, posters and prints, convention speeches etc. A total of 3,281 notebook pages detailing his creative process. I never really got the time to study the notebooks when I had them. Just did a quick look, scanned them in and sent them back to Dave as soon as possible. So this regular column is a chance for me to look through those scans and highlight some of the more interesting pages.

Another look at Dave Sim's first Cerebus notebook, which we just saw in last week's The Way to Sannozay. Why? Because of (American) Thanksgiving holiday break, and 4 home games in 7 days - a game every day - and another Bruins event this week means time to write this column is short.
How about a quick sketch by Dave:

Notebook 1, page 168

Or perhaps some sketches of Mary Astor, the precursor to Astoria:

Notebook 1, page 184

And if Elrod is the thin man, does that make Astoria Nora Charles?

Astoria and Cerebus sitting in a tree...

Hi, Everybody!

House of Cerebus.

And Dave's calling on Thursday, get your questions in to momentofcerebus@gmail.com, or else Dave and I will be spending Way Too Long talking about:

It starts with Margaret (and she wants a raise!), continues with me, and then again.

(Ya'll caught up?) ((Did ya read the comments?))

Okay, Jeff's position is that Astoria was manipulating Cerebus when he raped her.

My counter is that Astoria hadn't been able to manipulate Cerebus since the third time Jaka showed up and said:

As evidenced by the last time he saw Astoria before the rape:

But going back to earlier in High Society, there's this bit:

Which is just weird. (I trimmed the bit where Astoria really was high.)

And then there's:

Like, how many times did Cerebus have sex with Astoria?

And bonus: What was this?:

I mean, what was the play here?

Next Time: I dunno, less of this kind of thing?

Cerebus' Second Marriage

Hi, Everybody!

House of Cerebus.

So, continuing from yesterday's post, where Jeff commented:

Okay. "She was asking for it." is no defense.
But.
Astoria was the grand manipulator of Cerebus, to advance her ... career?
No, her cause. Her agenda against Cirin.
She had next to no interest in Cerebus, sexually, except for how he could advance her Kevillist cause. Seducing him, trying to get him to impregnant her with an aardvark baby would, most definitely advance her cause.
Also the scene with Astoria stripping her panty down to her foot and her artfully placing it on Cerebus' head, while giving him a look at his "acquired taste", was a callback to his first encounter with Jaka, IIRC. Except for the up-close look/taste. Jaka, sad to say, was waaay classier than was Astoria. I mean, just look at the source material for Astoria.
Layers upon layers, upon layers.
Induced, purposefully designed seduction. It was not a rape. In my humble and psychologically-trained opinion. Have at me, Feminists.
I would say, "Have fun," but we all know that that goes without saying. Don't we, girls?

And:

Okay, Feminist Dave may have said and *may* have tried to draw and have written about Astoria being "raped."
But, that doesn't change the fact that she was manipulating Cerebus.
Unless, you know, she was just a "party" girl.
I think that Dave once wrote about writing and drawing her retiring to a sanctvary in order to make it up to the character for his having made her such a bad person.
Not that Cerebus didn't deserve it.

Eddie then said:

Dave talked about it in-depth a few years ago here. Not sure if answers your questions Jeff

Thanks, Eddie! (Everybody should have an Eddie...)

From the blog post Eddie shared, Dave says:

I've got my own controversial rape scene -- Cerebus raping Astoria in CHURCH & STATE. There I think I was making a more substantial point that probably didn't come through either a) at the time b) since or c) with most readers. And I tried not to explain because -- as an on-going work -- if you have to explain what you're doing it means you failed in your intention. Hope they -- or some of them -- "get it" later on. A quarter of a century later seems a different thing. READER'S DIGEST version:

I saw it as Astoria definitely having a High Level Debate with Cerebus as his prisoner: essentially saying "You're trying to make this into something that it isn't. You aren't really the Pope. You are technically, but you don't understand that that has to mean something larger than "technically". You're actually just another vile male and I'll prove it to you. And it will cost you because technically you are the Church and you are in my way and I want you out of my way. I think I can trip you up and bring you -- and therefore the Church -- down by several hundred notches on the Big Scoreboard." Which, to me, she did. She aroused him sexually. She didn't provoke him into raping her (although he would have seen it that way). Even as -- blunt-minded -- as Cerebus was and always had been, he couldn't just rape her which is a dead giveaway that he's transgressing and knows he's transgressing. Instead he blindfolds her, performs a "marriage" ceremony between them and then (in his mind) has marital relations.

At some level he must know exactly how bad that is.

But he's incontinent in the larger sense of the term (ie not just physically): if she's blindfolded it isn't really rape. If he marries them, as the Pope, it isn't really rape. And then, of course, he falls asleep right after. Which is part and parcel of trying to evade, mentally, that which can't be evaded in any way. If he falls asleep it didn't happen. He was asleep.

I had to address Astoria's nature as Lord Julius' ex-wife who was taking that stature -- and her link to Cirin -- and striking off on her own. Basically becoming the first feminist in Estarcion as distinct from the Cirinists (who were a matriarchy). I was doing the first substantial building blocks on the Cirin / Serna "How The Matriarchy Came To Be" which would take up a big chunk of "Minds" in MOTHERS & DAUGHTERS. Daughter political thinking actively opposed to Mother political thinking.

Rape, it seemed to me, would have to be factored in as an unavoidable part of Astoria's program.

The same way that rape, particularly gang-rape, is used to intimidate and "police" women in rural, tribal India today and in virtually all Muslim countries.

I had to fudge it quite a lot but what I decided was that Astoria would just become detached from it. In a context where rape would be unavoidable -- moving around a Medieval / verging on Renaissance environment mostly alone -- attempting to effect political change, empower women, etc. -- she figured out that the best that she could do was to just be an inert lump, completely detached. Which you'll notice was what she did with Cerebus. And then, as she did with Cerebus, gob in their ear. "That's basically what you just did to me -- injected your slime into an orifice of mine where it was completely unwanted". And I've always been proud of her line in answer to Cerebus' "What was that for?" "Little wedding present." Her fundamental belief in the fact that women getting the right to vote was the larger good was weighed against the sacrifice and she made the sacrifice. If becoming inured to rape was what it took, that's what she'd do.

I was still fudging it. Rapists are sadistic by nature. It's an act completely shorn of empathy. A woman -- particularly an attractive woman -- travelling alone in that historical context would be drawing a straight line between two very evil male points. Astoria would have gotten scarred at some point or several points and probably maimed. By not having that happen to her, it seemed dishonest at a fundamental level. But to actually show her physically maimed seemed a bridge too far to me. Over in the direction of splatter porn (again, I apologize for the dinosaur term).

If I was doing it now, I would probably go that extra step because there would be the real world precedent of girls getting acid thrown in their faces and getting their noses cut off in Muslim countries. Which we now know was happening at the time, and is a recurring motif in tribal societies (it just wasn't talked about in the news because it was pre-9/11). And, thematically, it's the same thing. The girls who that happened -- and happen -- to tend to just become more resolute which is what I was trying to convey with Astoria. The end -- women getting the right to vote -- justified any means for her. You would, presumably, flash on the mental image from the news you can erase from your head instead of asking "Where is this coming from? is this guy 'getting off' on showing Astoria with her nose cut off?"

That was my "backstory" for Astoria that I didn't want to just drop like a turd of exposition somewhere. Who would she discuss forcing herself to become inured to rape with? I get the sense that did not come across AT. ALL. for most readers. So I'm suggesting that could be the case with THE KILLING JOKE. Alan was saying what he says he was saying but that it just didn't make it off the page, through the readers' eyeballs and into their conscious minds.

 And then there's Trina Robbins: The Rape of Astoria.

And: Even The Pope Isn't Infallible, wherein Dave says:

I believe Cerebus raped Astoria. A number of Cerebus fans don't think so, venturing the opinion "she was asking for it". Are they wrong? It depends on your point of view. I don’t think there is such a thing as "asking for it" (unless she literally "asks for it" verbally). Cerebus changed the terms under which she was offering her "favour" (one of which was a gag to preclude any dissension). That is rape (to me). As I say a number of readers disagree. Kind of scary.

So: Cerebus. Raped. Astoria. End of discussion.

(But since I spent two hours formatting pages from various phonebooks, let's continue anyway...)

Jeff asserts "But, that doesn't change the fact that she was manipulating Cerebus."

Let us remember how Cerebus and Astoria ended up in that cell together:

So Cerebus uses his strange Aardvarkian powers...

And she kills the Lion of Serrea, and is almost immediately captured.

Which is how she ends up in the cell:

At her trial she explains what happened from her point of view:

None of which, in my view, is her "manipulating Cerebus."

Next Time: "Geez Matt, you're not done with this YET?!?" Nope. There's another dozen pages I haven't even gotten to yet...

A visit to THAT bit...

Hi, Everybody!

So the other day on Margaret's post, Jeff commented:

Brilliant (!) issue, especially the cover. 

And, BTW, Astoria was *never* a victim.

Even though she was chained up (which she may have enjoyed), she was in charge all of the time.

Including when The Pope "raped" her, after she artfully placed her lacy panties on his head and (just guessing here) gave him a waft of her estrus.

Just sayin'.

And Birdsong replied:

Cerebus changed the conditions of the arrangement halfway through. Sure, she offered him what she had to trade, but he was supposed to let her go afterwards. Instead he gagged her, married her and raped her. I would say "married" her, but he was the pope so it was a real marriage for a few minutes. As the Spiritual and Political leader of the majority of the known world there was no authority to punish him for this action.

Dave did say quite plainly that Cerebus raped Astoria. Astoria herself said later that she goaded Cerebus into raping her hoping to become pregnant with an Aardvark (if I recall correctly).

Well, there are A LOT of assumptions stated here, let's look at the bit, and see if anybody is, well, wrong:

Okay, out of the gate, Birdsong is wrong. He said: "Cerebus changed the conditions of the arrangement halfway through. Sure, she offered him what she had to trade, but he was supposed to let her go afterwards." That wasn't the deal. The deal was Astoria does Cerebus a favor, then she'll ask him to do her a favor.

Continuing:

That seems like a "Quid Pro Quo"

Okay, this seems like goading. But let's wait til it's over.

Continuing:

Okay, that's a thought balloon. Which means we're reading Astoria's thoughts. And "ACK! STOP IT!" doesn't seem like a consensual thought to me.

Continuing:

More inner monologue. Still nothing that seems like consent.

Continuing:

"I'VE NEVER BEEN...SO...HUMILIATED...IN MY LIFE" Yeah, she's into this...(sarcasm.)

Continuing:

Yeah...I'ma gonna have to call bull$#!+ on the idea that Astoria WASN'T raped.

Finishing:

So, as we've just seen, Cerebus raped Astoria.

Now, I suggest, that Cerebus did indeed rape Astoria. (And I think anybody that's read the above will agree with me.)

BUT, I also suggest that afterward, Astoria invented the "trying to get pregnant" story to cope with being raped.

Like most good lies, I think her story had a kernel of truth.

(Which is a good place to remind everybody, that Dave will be calling me on Thursday for November's Please Hold For Dave Sim, so get your questions in to momentofcerebus@gmail.com )

Next Time: That kernel of truth...