From the depths of the AMOChive, I give you: gammakpoos

Hi, Everybody!

From the depths of the AMOChive (actually, from my bedroom wall,) I bring you:

gammakpoos!

You remember gammakpoos right?



Next Time: I promised another letter from Dave a few days ago, didn't I?

Please Hold For Dave Sim 5/4/2019

Hi, Everybody!

The Auction for the Green Dante/Green Virgil cover is at $1277.00 US Dollars from: 高伯乐 (Gao BoLe)! If you want in on this action, just comment on this post, or e-mail momentofcerebus@gmail.com

Friend to the Blog, uses the Vulcan nerve pinch to bend his Wookiee: Steve Peters has another Kickstarter going. (I have a joke in one panel.)

The remastered Volume 1 is available digitally for $9.99.

On May second, Dave called and we talked for a hour and twenty-one minutes (I broke it up into six parts, HOPEFULLY, I split the video at good spots...). This month's Please Hold is a little more free-wheeling than in the past, but I hope everybody likes it.

Please Hold For Dave Sim 5/2/2019:

Part one in which Dave and I say "hi," and Dave talks about his wrist, and...Jeff Seiler's birthday, with a special surprise for Jeff:

Problems viewing this video? Watch directly on YouTube...

SURPRISE!

"YOU GET AN AARDVARK WANG! YOU GET AN AARDVARK WANG! EVERYBODY GETS AN AARDVARK WANG!!!" -Rapho

Part two in which answers the question of whether or not Suenteus Po was the narrator of Cerebus up until Women (in a very Dave Sim way...)

Problems viewing this video? Watch directly on YouTube...

Part three where Dave's continues talking about Suenteus Po as the narrator of Cerebus, and which Po was an aadvark.

Problems viewing this video? Watch directly on YouTube...

Part four, where Dave and I discuss my grandmother, and then David Johnson (who sent me a long e-mail, that I then sent up to Dave), which leads into Frank Miller

Problems viewing this video? Watch directly on YouTube...

Part five, where Dave continues talking about Frank Miller, Batman, and David Johnson, 

Problems viewing this video? Watch directly on YouTube...

And the finale, where Dave talks about David Johnson, the petition, the last questions of Jesse Lee Heardon and Jeff Seiler and Ramadan.

Problems viewing this video? Watch directly on YouTube...

Alright, thanks for watching, last one out turn out the lights. I'ma going to Endgame!

Next Time: I curse Thanos while you read Genesis Question commentary...

"2001"? "Signatures"?

DAVE SIM:
I got a fax from Sean R Thursday April 6 date-stamped 3:39 PM EDT telling me that there were 2,001 signatures on the petition (thanks, Sean).

iPetitions shut down the petition without notifying Margaret last time right after I had (foolishly) posted here with a "1,920 signatures on the Petition" headline.  When the petition was restored, there were 1,851 signatures with the "1,920 signatures on the Petition" headline prominent in the AMOC popular posts box.

Good one on me. No, seriously, well done: good blow to my credibility.  

Thus, my "anticipated fake news" headline this time.

Thanks to Alfonso Espinos (thanks, Alfonso!) and Leon Emmett (thanks, Leon!) of THE HAIRY TARANTULA for leaving phone messages this morning also notifying me that there were "2002"? "Signatures"? at this point.

Alfonso:  In answer to your phone message: In the VERY unlikely event that the signatures actually "stick" this time, I'll repeat where we are in the "possible future appearances" end of things:

1) The STAN LEE model holds. What a convention would do for Stan Lee or George Lucas or William Shatner for "security of person" popularity reasons would have to be done for me for "Not Micro-aggressioning Feminist Safe Spaces" reasons.

2) The convention would have to tell me how they do that (if they have previously hosted someone in the "security of person" popularity category) or how they propose to do that (if they haven't previously hosted someone in the "security of person" popularity category) and I'll see if it seems sufficiently "Feminist Safe Spaces" airtight or what I would need to see improved to avoid ANY possible "Micro-Aggression" on my part.

3) This would have to include prominent signage (size to be determined) indicating at the entrance to the area where I am signing "TRIGGER WARNING: DAVE SIM APPEARANCE" and 'TRIGGER WARNING: THIS IS NOT A FEMINIST SAFE SPACE" and admission would be dependent on a "Miranda warning"-style verbal acknowledgement that the person seeking admission understands the warning and that they acknowledge that they have read it.

4) We would arrange some kind of after hours get-together for people who have signed the petition and there would have to be someone assigned by the convention to check the petition for signatures at the door.  If the person's signature has been "made to not exist" (and not uncommon occurrence)  presumably they will be able to sign the petition at the door if they have a cellphone with Internet access.  As soon as their signature appears, they would be admitted.

The "2002" "signatures" are not a vote of confidence.  We live in a Feminist Theocracy which I acknowledge and which I am doing everything in my power to keep from violating.

I would strongly advise NO convention to invite me.  In a Feminist Theocracy, whatever you would spend would be a waste of money.

But, in acknowledgement of the "2002" "signatures" this is the best I can do in meeting you halfway if you are (for whatever reason) still interested in having me as a guest.  And the "2002" "signatures" are still there in the future.

iPetition Hits 1999 Signatories!

Whether you agree or disagree with Dave Sim's wider views, please consider showing your support for one of the comics medium's most unique talents by signing the ipetition confirming that you do not believe Dave Sim is a misogynist. Some of the people who already have are:

Stephen R Bissette (81):
Cartoonist, writer, fellow Spirit of Independence traveler, longtime CEREBUS reader, TABOO co-creator/co-creator/publisher/co-publisher who was originally bankrolled by Dave, and artist who owes a debt of thanks to Dave.

Michael Peterson (90):
Dave Sim has been an inspiration for over ten years of my life - and I most decidedly do not believe that he is a misogynist, an opinion I can hold after fully reading his essays and correspondence, and in contradiction to vague smear comments of all varieties.

Tyrone Biljan (91):
Dave has been and continues to be a great guy to me personally. He's never talked negatively about women in my presence.

Suley Fattah (100):
Dave has always been a gentleman whenever my wife and I met up with him.

Amanda Meadows (102):
Huge fan slash woman. If he feels this is necessary than so do I. 

Thadeus Zebroski (110):
I appreciate the medium of comic art and especially the work Dave Sim has done in Cerebus. While he has been critical of feminist ideas I don't believe Dave Sim is a misogynist.

Paul Weil (116):
Criticism does not denote fear or hatred...

John W. Hacker (119):
I've had the opportunity to speak with Mr. Sim several times over the years at different conventions. I found him to be a pleasant and intelligent fellow who was very interested in talking to the public about any number of subjects. Dave and I have vastly different views on politics, religion and several other subjects. While he does have very strong opinions about women and women's roles I'm convinced that the man is not a misogynist.

Gary Spencer Millidge (122):
Writer/artist, Strangehaven
I think if Dave Sim was a misogynist then he wouldn't have any trouble admitting it. So I don't believe he is. I even looked up what it meant.

Mel Smith (132):
I don't believe Dave Sim is a misogynist " in fact just the opposite. I believe Dave Sim has stood for nothing more than pure fucking artistic genius since day one in 1977! I have seen Dave fight for many, many, many people in and out of the comics family and to think some turds would treat a man of his grace this way makes me sick. I am proud to call Dave Sim my friend, mentor, and idol without whom I would never had published Gumby Comics or any other projects for that matter. Respectfully - Mel Smith

Dave Fisher (135):
I met Dave several years ago, and actually did some work for him before reading even a single page of Cerebus (he says sheepishly). His reputation preceded him of course, but IMO is ridiculously exaggerated. Dave is a thoroughly decent, stand-up human being. I have since read some Cerebus, but more than anything my opinion has been formulated by several challenging & stimulating sit-down conversations with Dave at his home. If I believed that Dave was truly a misogynist, I would find him loathesome and not waste my time, any more than he wants to waste his time and energy engaging disagreeable narrow-minded people who despise him. Sim has some very, very strong opinions, and I don't agree with all of them, but I do believe my own world view is better informed and sharpened for having his challenging thoughts and opinions expressed to me without apology or fear. Do I believe Dave has strong opinions against feminism Absolutely! Do I believe he hates women No, I honestly don't believe that to be true.

Stephen L Holland (168):
Owner, Page 45 comics shop, Nottingham, UK
...no, I do not believe that Dave Sim is a misogynist and I have nothing but contempt for those ignorant and illiterate few who have caused such a disproportionate stirr/tsunami amounting to character assassination over the last fifteen years.

James Owen (170):
Colleague and Friend. Dave and I disagree about many things, but I do not believe he is a misogynist. I realized that the reasons I have not signed the petition to this point have more to do with my differences with others on the periphery than they have to do with Dave. And were I to be asked in person what he asked for in his letter, as his colleague, I would not decline to support him. If it was presented to me at face value that he needed the support of his friends, I would not decline to have his back. Because whether or not Dave is still my friend, I am still his.

Logan DeAngelis (224):
President of ComiXpress.com, a long time Cerebus reader, and admirer of Dave and his works.

Brian K. Smith (229):
Comics fan and self publisher of small-press comics. To see one of our mediums greatest geniuses treated so disrespectfully, and to have one of comics greatest achievements swept under the rug is embarrassing. I've always loved comics since I was a kid because of the no-rules freedom of expression they offer. Too bad so many don't see it that way. Fuck them, I still do.

James Loh (230):
As a kid growing up reading comic books, Cerebus showed me what the medium was capable of, and as I've grown older, how few creators, at least in the mainstream, rise to the challenge. I do not believe that Dave Sim is a misogynist/hates women, and I find no evidence of this in any of his writings. People have inaccurately described a very talented man clearly and concisely laying out his opinions as being hateful, when I would argue that Sim's opinions have been expressed without any malice, or emotive statements. You may disagree with him, you may STRONGLY disagree with him, but to respond with such anger as to label a man a misogynist is discrimination in itself; to hate a person for their difference of opinion. 

John Garvin (276):
Labels like this, whether applied to Dave Sim or anyone else, are politically-correct bullshit attempts to censor freedom of thought, let alone freedom of speech. Cerebus, probably more than any other comic, has had the greatest impact on me as a creator and artist, and Sim should not be marginalized just because his views on gender, cosmology or ??? piss off the intelligentsia who are currently in vogue. Shame on everyone who wants to ignore 300 issues of complex storytelling because they deem the author "unclean."

Bill Willingham (282):
Writer of Fables and other books and stories.

Terry Phelps (288):
Dave Sim is not a misoginist, he's just made an in-depth and fascinatingly idiosyncratic stand on the issue of the dark side of feminism. Let us remember that feminism is a political movement. It is not "women", and it is not a vunerable victim to be protected from "brutish men". As a man who came of age during the birth of 70's femisim, Sim's courageous and heartfelt position is a unique testament to the social effects of a widespread and oft-irrational social movement that sought to disenfranchise talented young men like himself. Those who criticise Sim ought to do a self-check. You can go to one "women's studies' lecture and call yourself a feminist. Cheap entry. What Sim has done - whether you subscribe to every detail in Sim's worldview or not - is to compose a highly detailed and thought-through philosophical response to an overwhelmingly more powerful political movement than his lone voice. Regarding such a unique viewpoint, one is hardly going to agree with every aspect. But this effort will rank as one of the first sustained, complex responses in the postfeminist world to the unaknowledged evils of the feminist socio-political machine. I can't pretend to understand or agree with Sim's religious views. But I'm sure his social commentary will inform generations to come.

Kevin Eastman (294):
Co-creator Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
A proud friend and a huge fan!

Please consider signing the ipetition.

1,920 NAMES ON THE "I DON'T BELIEVE DAVE SIM IS A MISOGYNIST" PETITION

Is that true?  Anyone have any idea where the petition went and why?  And why it came back?  And how we know that there are 1,920 names on it, up from the 1,870 when it, suddenly, disappeared?

[I'll add only one remark at this point:  If you're talking about an online petition Working or Not Working -- which someone does in the Comments section of yesterday's post -- I said nine years ago that if we got 2,000 signatures on the petition I would reconsider my decision to not go out in public and I still plan to do that: reconsider.  My intention with the Petition was never punitive, it was accommodative of Feminism:  a misogynist shouldn't go out in public, in my view.  That being said, I DON'T BELIEVE DAVE SIM IS A MISOGYNIST. I'm not a feminist. To me, there's a big difference. The more signatures there are on the petition affirming I DON'T BELIEVE DAVE SIM IS A MISOGYNIST, the more willing I am to go out in public.  Posting here, as an example, more extensively in the Comments sections of the various posts is a direct result of getting closer to the 2,000 mark. Answering questions from people who haven't signed -- and won't sign -- the petition. Walking, briefly, around a convention in Kitchener City Hall New Years' Eve of last year.] [No danger of being recognized except by KITCHENERCON organizer Ron Hoppe and long-time local comics artist Bill Byrne].

Haven't seen a CEREBUS "In My Life" for a long, long, long while...

(creative people making a living in a creative field documenting CEREBUS' influence on their work and how they discovered it) (any creative people interested in doing a similar "In My Life" please contact TimW),

...so we all appreciate Adam Beechen taking time out of his VERY busy freelancer schedule (is there any other kind?) to send this to TimW (and TimW for posting it).  Adam has had a long and busy career in comics, TV and animation.  As someone put it recently, remembering Adam's letters back in the "Aardvark Comment" days and seeing his credits on TV: "The FAMOUS CEREBUS fan"

His most recent gig -- the longest he ever worked on one thing, according to Adam -- was as Executive Producer on TRANSFORMERS: ROBOTS-IN-DISGUISE for the last three years.

Take it away, Adam!

    

OFF-WHITE HOUSE BULLETIN 1800 hrs 2/13/17

Owing to the (latest) controversy surrounding the "I Don't Believe Dave Sim Is a Misogynist" petition (of which I wasn't aware until earlier today) which has effectively (as I'm sure it was intended to do) undermined a lot of hard work over the last nine years on the part of many people on my behalf, beginning tomorrow, I will no longer be answering comments and questions on A MOMENT OF CEREBUS unless they are prefaced with the words I DON'T BELIEVE DAVE SIM IS A MISOGYNIST (preferably all in caps).

This policy will be in effect until such time as there is, once more, a "hard number" of signatories (re)-attached to the Petition box to the right of this page (at which time, I will reassess the level of my participation on AMOC based on what that number turns out to be).

I wish there was some other recourse but since this situation has the appearance of "wishing the Petition away" I've had to come up with something that will make it plain that that's not going to happen.

Ever.

I look forward to hearing from and exchanging thoughts with my (many!) I DON'T BELIEVE DAVE SIM IS A MISOGYNIST supporters in the coming days.

Weekly Update #158: Colin Upton's Kicking At The Darkness

Dave takes a look at Colin Upton's new comic Kicking At The Darkness, and gets a phone message from  Kapow! Comics store owner Matthew Dykes about the "I Don't Believe Dave Sim Is A Misogynist" iPetition.

COLIN UPTON:
(from Colin's Facebook page, 16 October 2016)
Well, today was the release of my new comic book, "Kicking at the Darkness" [PDF preview here]. My brother Leslie attended along with my high school history teacher. Mr.Kreiger, who's daughter Nina runs the VHEC! There were also a couple retired history professors from UBC who were colleagues of my father. It's a bit unusual as the comic was paid for and printed by the Vancouver Holocuast Education Centre. It's not intended for distribution but as a tie-in with an exhibit on the Canadian Army in World War Two to be given to student groups. If you really need a copy you can contact me as I have a limited number of copies or you can contact the VHEC about getting a copy but it is not their intention to sell lots of them to the public. They're asking for a donation of $5 for the comic.

Aardvark Comment: Is The Petition Helping?

Back in 2008 Dave Sim started the "I don't believe Dave Sim is a misogynist" petition and began issuing the form-letter below to any correspondence he received. However, in a recent weekly update Dave Sim stated:

"Six years with the petition, six hundred signatures on it, no signature from any major creator still working in the comic book field, except for Kevin Eastman, Steve Bissette, Troy Little and a handful of other people. Picture virtually any big name in the comic book field and their name is not on the petition."

Even among Dave's supporters the petition isn't a straight forward proposition, as Iestyn recently commented on AMOC:

"I won't sign the petition even though I believe Dave is not a misogynist because I believe the thing to be a straw man argument in the first place. I believe that maintaining it, reinforces the very thing it supposedly exists to deny."

To detractors, the petition is just further evidence of Dave Sim's erratic behaviour, and as comics-writer Ed Brubaker mentioned this back in 2012 on that tortuous 'Sim/Fantagraphics Negotiations' thread at TCJ.com:

"I’ve been in comics about 20 years, and I didn’t even know Dave Sim had a petition he was demanding people sign. So I don’t see how the number of signatures he’s gathered is an indication of anything."

A recent exchange on the Cerebus Facebook Group highlighted the problems with how the petition is perceived:

SANDEEP ATWAL:

...if Dave IS going to give you even more of his time for free, all he asks is that you state publicly that you don't think he's scum. Considering how many people do think he's scum (and take a look at Twitter anytime if you doubt it), that doesn't seem too much to ask...

CHRISTOPHER WOERNER:

...If there's a "problem," I think it's the petition, and Dave's insistence upon it. No one who would agree with Dave will sign the petition because it's a stupid idea, and few people who might agree with Dave will even be inclined to inquire whether or not he's a misogynist, because who wants to deal with someone who makes you sign a petition before he'll deal with you? I was one of the first people to sign the petition because he's not a misogynist, duh. But all that gets me is a ticket into Dave's world. All insisting on the petition does is deny Dave a ticket into anybody else's world, which he's going to need if his work will remain viable in the short-term.

The short-term is an important point. It's how Dave gets paid, and Ger, and everyone else. Does no good to focus on the long-term if everybody starves to death before we get there. I freely admit that I don't have a good answer to how Dave can get through this, and I don't pretend that any of my advice would work, and not leave him in a horrible ghostly form swearing revenge upon me in the classic superhero mode. And I can't even say 'get rid of the petition' because it's worked for him the same way everything else has. I think it's a bad idea, but it's his bad idea and doesn't harm anyone else. [Which actually places it higher than a lot of other bad ideas in history.]

The world that exiled him is not remotely the world which exists now. I don't know if that helps, but I do think he's hurting himself with the petition.

SA: I appreciate your comments. I think I know what you're saying. But honestly, as far as the petition goes, I don't think it makes much of a difference. Sign the petition: Okay, thanks! Don't sign the petition: Okay, no hard feelings! And that's pretty much about it. It's not like if Dave got rid of the petition there would all of a sudden be this massive influx of interest, acclaim and money coming his way. I honestly don't know if anybody would even notice. So I think it's just a real-world way of not doing free work for people trying to slander him, as many have done and are doing...

...I certainly don't see a massive explosion in attention and acclaim for Dave Sim happening anytime soon, as much as I think he deserves it. More like slow and steady wins the race, continue to build a group of dedicated fans who are the hardcores who support the art and the artist and are the ones who keep the work alive for the next generation. That's just the way I see these sorts of things playing out in general. If you want to be romantic about it, just remember Oscar Wilde died in complete disgrace, in debt, and in exile; William Blake had about 4 people at his funeral; nobody cared who Edgar Allan Poe was; Van Gogh lived a life of poverty and then shot himself, and it took about 200 years of obscurity before Vermeer was recognized as one of history's greatest painters. But everyone loves them now. So there's always that. 

CW: "Slow and steady wins the race" is a good way to put it, and it's exactly where Dave has proven himself. And you're right, there would not be an influx of interest if he ditched the petition. And I can understand why he thought the petition was a good idea. He worked himself up from a fanboy in the 1970s writing articles and doing interviews into the legendary comics creator that he is. And if he is exiled from the world that he helped build, he has every right to demand that anyone he deals with sign a petition before he wastes a single second on them.

I just don't see him making any progress, even among the people who are most receptive to his work, if he insists on a decades-old petition being signed before he'll even consider responding. It's a needless impediment, and we're in an internet world. Needless impediments are the first things to make you go 'screw this.' Not the best way to approach people who could be receptive towards your work. 

SA: I appreciate the input. I certainly don't speak for Dave (he does that for himself, if you've noticed!) but I would say.... it's a needed impediment. Believe me, I don't think Dave takes these things lightly at all and has fully considered how it would affect his career, etc. But, again (this is me) I think that after 20 years of slander he decided to do something about it. Anyway, it's really not THAT much of an impediment, is it?

CW: Look at it from the perspective of somebody [anybody] who thinks this Dave Sim guy might be saying things worth paying attention to, but any attempts to investigate [i.e. Google] lead to him whining about how the world considers him a misogynist, without any context, or how we need to sign a petition before having any further contact. I agree that Dave doesn't consider this lightly, I agree that he's made the best possible decisions for his career, and since those decisions are how he made "Cerebus" possible, I can't in good conscience tell him he's wrong, but yes, for any potential "Cerebus" reader [or Dave Sim fan] the petition is a needless impediment.

Dave himself often points out to people who've made their own comics past issue #50 that they didn't become "Cerebus" fans until they read "Cerebus" #150 [made-up example by the way, but there are plenty of real examples] and asking where they would be if he'd given up during those hundred issues before they discovered his work. That's where I think the petition is self-defeating, that it gives potential fans a reason to give up. We're in an internet world where #186 and "Tangent" are easily-Googled, but why should I give this guy the slightest effort when he's always whining about how Alan Moore or Neil Gaiman won't sign his petition? Why is that guy who did the "Stardust" movie so important anyway? Oh, I have to sign a petition before he'll tell me. Oh well, thanks for the advice on women. Didn't cost me a penny.

SA: Even if Dave was lauded by every publication on the planet and never wrote 186 and was a feminist, you're still talking about a 6,000 page comic book about an aardvark. The work itself is an impediment to the work. Dave made it pretty clear years ago that this is about him doing his work on his terms. If anyone else finds that too constrictive, well, okay. I think what you see as needless impediments, are simply part of the story. These people overcame those obstacles. Those people didn't. I don't think that there is an endgame where Dave just does X, Y and Z and all of a sudden he's popular. Plus, playing the game of doing things just to get an audience never works. Instead, the game Dave is playing, I think, is my work, my way. Want to come along for the ride? Great, hope you have a good time. Don't want to come along for the ride? No hard feelings, hope you find what you're looking for. My work, my way. Nothing beats that. Not even the cover of the New Yorker.

CW: But it works both ways. Yes the sheer scale of the work is itself an impediment. So why add another impediment? Particularly one which makes the work itself far too easy to dismiss as some guy who sat at home and wrote a 6000-page manifesto, but won't talk to anyone about it unless they've signed his petition. Let's face it, that is not a completely inaccurate description of "Cerebus" and how it was created. It's not fair nor entirely honest, but it's not completely inaccurate either.

Popularity is a capricious thing and I certainly wouldn't bet any money on Dave becoming popular, but he also wants an audience. He wants people to pay money for his work, and we all want that for him as well. Front-loading the reader's investment in this 6000-page work with a petition on some website somewhere, or even just creating the perception that this petition is anywhere near as important to him as the work, is needlessly detrimental to the work finding an audience, in my opinion. It's simply not as important to the reader or potential audience.

I don't think this would mean contravening any of Dave's moral positions, which he's worked very hard to achieve and maintain. I would advise him to drop the petition as a battle that's been lost, but only because the larger points he's made all along are a battle that can be won, but not by focusing on the petition. And I freely admit I have no idea where he could turn his limited time and energy towards, whether he takes my advice or not...

iPetition: "I don't believe Dave Sim is a misogynist"

Jeff Seiler: Dave Sim & Me

JEFF SEILER:

Okay, I’m going to break with my standard for these posts and (briefly) return to posting my letter first (which, by the way, does include a dialogue between Dave and me) as a way of leading into Dave’s response. I think that it’s the only way this makes sense. All of this centers around the (now) ridiculous row that arose from the idea of posting the "I don’t believe Dave Sim is a misogynist" petition. Oh, and I should add, this was all by fax, which Dave (and others, but not me) wanted to do for (I think) the purpose of communicating more quickly. I found it to be more difficult, as I did not own a fax machine. I *still* prefer writing letters, although I did move on to typing them on the QWERTY thingy, rather than writing them out by hand. Although, my most recent letters to Dave have been handwritten. ANYWAY, here are the exchanges from May 9th, 2008.

++++++++++++++++++

[From me:] 

Dave---Here is what I posted on the Yahoo [Ed: the Yahoo Cerebus chat group, the immediate precursor of AMOC; it still exists, albeit in a moribund form] group. The first part is a post by Larry H. I had been away for a week, due to Internet access restrictions. I think that my response stands well without elaboration to you, at this time. Please send your response to fax number XXX-XXX-XXXX, ℅ [Ed: name deleted]. [Jeff] T. emailed me instructions for faxing via email, which will make it much easier (and less expensive) to exchange faxes with you, but I haven’t yet had time to set that up. Maybe next week.

[Ed: What follows is the Yahoo chat group post by Larry H., which I prefaced with the heading “Man, oh, man, oh, man”. Larry posted:]

Ordinarily, I’d concede your point, but when the original posting comes with a “only answer in this particular form, and I won’t be replying to any responses”, followed by Seiler’s caution not to respond at all until we’ve been apprised of the associated disclaimers (of which HE is, of course aware, but hasn’t yet deigned to let us in on), then even you, Rick [Rick S., a regular poster at the Yahoo group], have to acknowledge that it’s more humorous to see the dodging being done by those “posing” the question.

Mix liberally (heh) with the fact that a few weeks ago, those of us who chimed in with actual discussion over the nuances implied in the question (the implied question being, “Do you believe those who DO think Dave is a you-know-what have solid ground for thinking so?” and the more interesting question being, “If we really learn and internalize and apply the lessons Dave promotes in {title of book not to be mentioned ever in this context on the Internet}, does it not make it harder to deny the applicability of the you-know-what to what Dave is?”) were told in no uncertain terms that we were doing irreparable harm to Dave and ruining this list [Ed: Larry was referring to the chat group with the word “list”.]. So, no, I’m not stepping in that one again. Sort of.

Even though the quick-easy answer to the question is that I don’t believe Dave Sim is a misogynist.

Larry H.

++++++++++++++++++

OKAY. So, then, continuing my fax to Dave about Larry’s post, I went on, thusly:

-----Head; desk. Pound repeatedly until I internalize the lesson.

Don’t put something up like what I did last Thursday and then take a week off. Okay: First, I waited to “deign” to tell everyone because I was deferring to Margaret to put the “wiki” (as Dave called it) up, as she was the first one to whom Jeff T. passed the baton. She emailed me that she would try to do it on Saturday (May 3rd) and would let me know. Well, she put it up, but not in the format that Dave wanted it (although she did put it up in a way that is accessible by non-group-members, which *is* what Dave wanted).

Here is the actual text of what I wrote to Dave when Jeff T. emailed me all of the correspondence between Chet [Ed: Chester Brown] and Dave, and Dave and him [Ed: Jeff T.]. In that email exchange between Jeff T. and me, I volunteered to put the “wiki” up and Jeff T. told me that he had first passed it on to Margaret. In the meantime, here is what I wrote about that to Dave, with his response embedded in text:

“Hi, Dave! I received and have read the lengthy correspondence between you, Chet, and Jeff T. I suspect he [Jeff T.] was willing to send it to me because he knew how I would respond--with this fax.

[Ed: The fax to which I referred:] “Re: Your fax to Jeff T. dated 24 April: I don’t know what you mean by a ‘wiki’ at the Yahoo group, but I’m more than willing to do that in his stead.”

Dave responds: “When it’s up and running I’d like it to be open to everyone--not just the group (if possible on the Yahoo Newsgroup home page?). Maybe?”

Me: “I could use the form letter…”

Dave: “Not necessary?”

Me: “and create a ‘poll’ at the group that would just let people sign their name *if they affirm* the statement, ‘I don’t believe that Dave Sim is a misogynist.”

Me: “Given the discussions between you and Chet and Jeff T., I would suggest adding, ‘or a sexist’ to the above prompt.”

Dave: “Check.”

Me: “I would create the ‘poll’ or ‘wiki’ so that no one could comment or confabulate. Just affirm and sign.”

Dave: “Check.”

So, I think it’s pretty clear that that’s what Dave wanted to be done with this. Margaret’s very well-meaning attempt includes a place for affiliation *and* for posting anonymously, which I think I can say is precisely *not* what Dave was asking for.

Regardless of the fact that so many people here are going to jump all over my pointy little head for posting this, I *must* say that I had agreed to put the “wiki” or “poll” up the way that Dave had requested it. And, I have yet to find a way to see the results of the iPetition thus far, although I have seen that someone’s very inappropriate response was deleted by Margaret. [Ed: I was wrong here. As of the writing of this letter, there were 52 signees at the iPetition.]

Dave had a very good point with what Jeff T. wrote, not because what he wrote was bad, but because in just the first incarnation of what Dave wanted, it was already changed. The fact that Margaret’s iPetition allows for comments *and* anonymity, is just a further illustration of what Dave was talking about.

In Dave’s response to Jeff T., he said that Jeff T. could feel free to post his version, but that it was not the version that Dave was requesting. I’m sure that he would say the same to Margaret about her iPetition, but it’s not what he wanted.

I’m going to copy this post and put it in a fax to Dave today. I’ll let you guys know what he says.

Please be aware that I am not attempting to censor anyone here, nor am I trying to squelch a free and open discussion (as has clearly occurred, in spades) of the questions that *you guys* want raised, but am only pointing out that the result of the iPetition has gone exactly in the way that Dave predicted that it would *and* has not accomplished what Dave wanted.

And, before you jump on me for my statement to Dave, “no comment or confabulation”, you should know that the reason I said that (and, I suspect, why he agreed) is that allowing for comment and confabulation would have taken this thing exactly in the direction in which it has gone.

So, now; fire away.

Jeff Seiler

P.S.: On the iPetition site, one must enter full name and email address. Then one may click a button to post anonymously. And then there is a box labeled “affiliation”, which effectively works as a comment box. Thus far, only I have commented with, “I do not believe that Dave Sim is a misogynist or a sexist.” I do think that my points above stand, though.

P.P.S.: I read your comments to Rick S., as well. I thought sharing your fax to me might clarify things.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Dave’s response, by fax, dated 9 May, 2008, 15:45 p.m., CST. This was sent to my then girlfriend’s work fax number, as I did not have a fax machine. Thus, Dave’s handwritten note to her at the top of the letter:

“Hi, XXXX! Jeff said I should fax this ℅ you. I don’t want to get you in trouble at work, so if this is in any way a problem, feel free to tell me to knock it off. --Dave”

To: Rick S. and Jeff Seiler

Hi, Rick and Jeff:

Dead silence all day and then you both came in literally seconds apart.

No, I don’t really need to see a lot of this, but a sampling is always nice Archive-wise. I’ve just spent four days on one page for glamourpuss No. 3, so that’s obviously more where my attention has been.

I think it’s working pretty well so far. The people who have believed that I have all of this incredible support in the comics field, close friends in the upper ranks of creativity and publishing, etc., can see that my total support amounts to 50 people. So, that’s good. That’s reality. That’s what I’m looking for.

On the other side of the fence, it shows that there are 50 people who don’t believe that thinking the Impossible Things [Ed: The 15 (now 16) Impossible Things To Believe Before Breakfast) to be Impossible Things means that I hate women. That’s good, too. That, as well, is reality. I mean, it seems to me that’s where Gail’s [Ed: I believe, here, that Dave referred to comics writer Gail Simone, who is an avowed feminist, and who once, I’m proud to say, actually apologized to me (in a personal email) for haranguing me on the Internet when she had misunderstood or misinterpreted something I had posted.] peculiar profanity-laced profession of theatrical hilarity is coming from: like Heidi MacDonald, even one person not absolutely shunning me constitutes a personal affront to THEM. “Look at how funny I find you! Look at how I’m laughing at you!” But, it doesn’t read as funny, it reads like computer rage. So, that’s good, too. Everyone who won’t count themselves with the 50 is basically saying “Gail is right” or having to confront that this is the sort of person they’ve chosen to enable by remaining silent, this is the voice of the Comic Book Consensus, by abstention.

The most important thing is that anyone on the Internet is able to sign the statement or not sign it. The other important thing is that people can take their names down if they change their minds as the discussion -- er, “discussion” -- evolves.

The bottom line for me was: there just aren’t enough hours in the day. I looked at the pile of 60 or 70 letters that had built up over the last three months and I realized NONE of those people was willing to stand up and say that they didn’t think I was a misogynist. So why would I invest three or four days of work answering all of them?

Well, it turned out I was wrong. Out of the 60 or 70 form letters I sent out, 5 or 6 people WERE willing to say that they don’t believe I’m a misogynist. I was able to answer all of those letters in an hour or two and then spend all of my time writing and drawing. When I consider how many hours I would have wasted on the other 50 or 60 people...

...yes, I think this is working very well, indeed.

Best,

Dave

Jeff Seiler: Dave Sim & Me

JEFF SEILER:

Eleven years ago, when Cerebus ended, Dave Sim decided to answer all of his back mail. A month or so later, he had his "Jeff Seiler Day" in which he answered multiple letters I had written over the previous year. After I received that letter, I decided to keep writing, and he kept his promise to answer every letter he received. Now, I have a foot-high stack of letters written and received over 10 years or so. I'll be running interesting excerpts from those letters each week.

To my knowledge, Dave has written two open letters to his correspondents. This one comes as a result of (I believe) two lengthy discussions, one with Jeff T., the other with Chester Brown, both of which were very unsatisfactory for Dave. They both occurred in or around April of 2008. What followed, as an open letter from Dave to all of his correspondents, was this. I received it in a fax dated 24 April, 2008:

Please consider signing Dave Sim's iPetition.

963 Names on the Petition!

DAVE SIM:
Must be another convention weekend for Studio Comics, Alfonso and Tiara and Co.

We are getting close to the halfway mark which, considering we were at 647 a month or so ago is really unbelievable and deeply gratifying!

Thanks to all the signatories!

Dave Sim's iPetition:

"I Don't Believe Dave Sim Is A Misogynist"

743 SIGNATURES ON THE PETITION!

DAVE SIM:
As Jimmy Stewart used to say, "Well, whattayaknow about THAT?"

We've gone from averaging 50 signatures a YEAR to 50 signatures a MONTH! If this pace keeps up, I'll have to decide whether to go out in public again TWO YEARS from now instead of TWELVE YEARS from now.  I'm not sure I can THINK that fast at my age!   :)

Anyway, thanks to everyone who's getting serious about this eight years later.

Dave Sim's iPetition:

"I don't believe Dave Sim is a misogynist."

Dear "I Don't Believe Dave Sim Is A Misogynist" Lou Valenti

Re: Lou Valenti's comment on the petition from a couple of days ago:

Yes, Lou, you did sign the petition very early.  And thank you.  According to the print-out that I have, you signed on May 5, 2008 and you were #19.  So my math is off:  EIGHT years and roughly 80 signatures a year instead of SEVEN years and roughly 90 signatures a year.

It's not unusual for a name to "disappear" off of the petition, but I don't know what to recommend.  Anything I say is going to take us -- as pretty much everything does -- into "Crazy Dave Sim" territory. It's "Crazy Dave Sim's" fault that signatures keep disappearing.  "Crazy Dave Sim" is just being paranoid that signatures are being deleted.  It's just a computer glitch.  Move along. Nothing to see here. Just "Crazy Dave Sim the Evil Misoygnist".

The petition isn't mine.  The petition belongs to everyone else who is concerned (as I think they should be concerned) with being on the wrong side of the "if you aren't a feminist you're a misogynist" "debate" here in the early part of the 21st century.  As I've said elsewhere, that's the equivalent of saying "The only reason you're not a Communist is because you hate Workers."  The reason I'm not a Communist is the same reason that I'm not a feminist: it's structurally unworkable.  The 15 Impossible Things To Believe Before Breakfast explain WHY I think that feminism is structurally unworkable. No one wants to talk about that.  Just "Crazy Dave Sim".

I'm sorry, Lou -- and everyone else who signed the petition in good faith -- but that's the situation.  You can't count on the signature staying on there and, presumably, will have to check on a semi-regular basis to ensure that your signature is on there.  I assume that's the idea:  to make the petition seem even more futile than it already is.

Maybe Margaret could publish the complete list once every six months or something?  Yes, that will DEEPLY IRRITATE everyone besides the 654 (and MIA) signatories.

But, that's up to Margaret and the 654.

Wish it was otherwise, but that's the...malignancy?...we all inhabit.

[The full list of signatories to Dave Sim's Petition can now be found here...]

Weekly Update #123: Kitchener ComicCon

Dave Sim talks about the upcoming Kitchener ComicCon and why he won't be there...
...hint... Dave's iPetition

Dave Sim: 3 Minutes About Misogyny

"I think that equating opposition to feminism with misogyny is the same as suggesting that the only reason to not be a communist is that you hate working people. I don't hate working people. I don't hate communists, I don't hate women, and I don't hate feminists. I don't hate anybody. I keep my political discussions completely free from emotion because I think emotion has no place in a political discussion." ~ Dave Sim, September 2015

Links & Further Reading:
"I Don't Believe Dave Sim Is A Misogynist" Petition
15 Impossible Things To Believe Before Breakfast
Neil Gaiman: Why I Won't Sign Dave Sim's Petition
Sandeep Atwal's Explanation Of Dave Sim's Views

Neil Gaiman: Why I Won't Sign Dave Sim's Petition

Earlier today, Neil Gaiman announced that he was supporting Dave Sim's Patreon fundraiser, saying that "the world of comics is a big one", but "I won't sign his pledge", a reference to Dave Sim's online petition which asks people to confirm that they do not believe Dave Sim to be a misogynist. This seemed like the perfect opportunity to ask Neil (via Twitter) to make clear his reasons for not signing Dave's petition. Neil's response was as follows:

@MomentOfCerebus For one, my disgust re Dave's statements on the McFarlane trial (eg I won it because all-women juries can't understand law)

— Neil Gaiman (@neilhimself) August 26, 2015

@MomentOfCerebus As I recall, Dave explained you either sign his statement as written, unmodified, or never communicate with him.

— Neil Gaiman (@neilhimself) August 26, 2015

@MomentOfCerebus I don't force friends to sign ideological passes before they can talk to me. I'd rather they disagreed with me to my face.

— Neil Gaiman (@neilhimself) August 26, 2015

To give some context to Neil Gaiman's objections to Dave Sim's perceived misogyny, the following is an extract from a letter to Erik Larsen (then Image publisher) from Dave Sim posted on Al Nickerson's Creator's Bill Of Rights Website on 27 July 2005. The letter comments on the dispute between Neil Gaiman and Todd McFarlane over the ownership and royalties due from Medieval Spawn and Angela, characters created by Neil Gaiman in Spawn #9 in March 1993, written by Gaiman and illustrated by McFarlane. The dispute was finally settled in 2012 with Neil Gaiman being award the full ownership rights to Angela. The Hollywood Reporter has a handy summary of the case if you're interested.

DAVE SIM: 

...I conceded your point on Medieval Spawn. Even though a court of law said Neil had a case, I don't think it serves the comic-book field's best interests to see that as a precedent -- or, perhaps, more accurately -- that it proves that those things need to be established by the publishing creator. "I don't go in for that. If you want to take back Medieval Spawn, go ahead, but I don't see variations as innovations and I can't concede ownership of something that’s just a modification of my own intellectual property". I think it was a very badly-reasoned verdict in the Neil vs. Todd trial that would make very bad case law -- all you have to do is reverse it to see that: what if Neil had created Medieval Spawn and sold it to Vertigo? Would anyone in their right mind think he was entitled to do so? -- and just between you me and the lamppost I think it had more to do with the all-female jury at the trial. It wouldn't matter what Todd and Neil were disagreeing about, an all-female jury was going to find Todd in the wrong and Neil in the right just because Todd is Todd and Neil is Neil. Had the judge asked them, I'm sure the all-female jury would have been happy to give Neil the rights to Spawn, Todd's house and cars, Madonna's uniform from A League of Their Own and the Mark McGwire baseball and anything else Neil expressed an interest in.

Angela, I would maintain was a different matter entirely and I would think that all of these "well after the point of creation" items could be better handled on an issue-by-issue basis. It would seem to me that Neil was entitled to a royalty on each appearance of Angela and on the action figure and if that seemed unreasonable to Todd -- and, as I've said, I can certainly see Todd thinking that $100,000 should be you some consideration -- then the easy answer, it seems to me, is to write Angela out of the book and discontinue the action figure. And I quite agree with you on who was driving the Spawn bus. As far as I know the sales on Spawn 9 were probably higher than on Sandman to a factor of ten. Just as the sales of Spawn 10 were higher than on Cerebus to a factor of 100...

Why I Haven't Signed Dave Sim's Petition

GREG GRIFFIN:
(originally posted on AMOC: Please Consider Signing The Petition, 19 August 2015)

I haven't signed the ["I don't believe Dave Sim is a misogynist"] petition (and don't plan to) despite being a huge fan and longtime supporter of Dave and Cerebus. That longtime and passionate support has at times taken the form of a public defense of the work, nowhere more often than on the late, lamented Comics Journal message boards. It's puzzling to me why Dave is determined to remain disconnected from the internet, yet insistent (for over a decade) that he has no supporters in public opinion. The conversations are still out there in the Wayback Machine for anyone to see, and I didn't defend Dave and Cerebus as often as some, but I did my fair share.

I'm not easily offended, but it's hard not to take umbrage at Dave's seemingly perpetual moan of Poor Me, No One Will Stand Up for Cerebus. Excuse me? I've been with you since 1984, not only buying nearly anything you commit to paper, hanging original art in the walls of my home for friends and family to see, and wading into public debate - using my real name and location - as opportunity allows. Does that not count?

If his petition had read: "I defend Dave Sim's (or anyone's) right to critique feminism as a political / social / economic philosophy", I would have signed it years ago, as soon as it was put up! I'll say it right now for posterity, in all caps, on the public internet for all the world to see:

I DEFEND DAVE SIM'S RIGHT TO CRITIQUE FEMINISM AS A POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY.

 - signed, Greg Griffin, Los Angeles, California, August 2015.

Maybe some of the signers above have the benefit of spending enough time with Dave in person such that they can say they KNOW FOR A FACT he's not a misogynist. If you have, that's great (and I envy you). But I've only met him in person twice, way back when he used to do tours and signings, way before his views on feminism and religion were part of the story, and our interaction was entirely cursory. All I have to go on is his published work, which strays outside of a purely intellectual inquiry into feminism far enough, and often enough, to make the misogyny question stick to the wall.

I'm DEFINITELY NOT saying I think that Dave IS a misogynist, and I accept him at his word that his sole interest is in questioning the societal changes wrought by feminism. But I don't KNOW that he isn't. I'm missing two pieces of data: what is a misogynist (what constitutes a negative, discriminatory or objectifying view of women in general, and to what degree does one need to consistently hold it in order for the label to stick)? and how does Dave fit that definition in both his public and private, interior and exterior life? If anything, I'm impressed that he convinced the 670-odd fans to sign.

Most of the messages above are messages of support and love for Dave and Cerebus, and to that let me unreservedly add my name. But to publicly avow that someone you don't know and maybe have never even met does / does not hold a particular thinking pattern - bit silly, isn't it?

And who cares anyway? Is Dave the first author of some renown to face public criticism and censure? Have people stopped talking about or reading Celine, or Salman Rushdie, or Samuel Clemens?

By way of aside - my interest in Cerebus really picked up during "Church and State" and soared with the entire second half - well, up until "Chasing YHWH" anyway. I am not your typical "oh please, give us more Roach and Elrod" fan - the best stuff (IMO) was the material that cut against the grain.

I find the entire concept of a Public Loyalty Oath absurd and beneath Dave's stature as the pre-eminient cartoonist of his generation. Second to none. Cerebus will survive as literature based on its merit - same as every other book that's ever been written. Not because 670-odd people put their name on a petition to help make Dave, our beloved paragon of rational Male thought, "feel better".

I Don't Believe Dave Sim Is A Misogynist

Please consider signing the iPetition. 
Recent signatories include:

DAVID J WOODWARD:

Cartoonist from Detroit, MI and fan of Cerebus. I think there are way too many people who read far too into things and overthink what they read. Cerebus is an intelligent and thought-provoking graphic novel series that deserves more respect than it gets, and from fellow friends of mine who have met Dave, I've only heard the very nicest things about him. His work has been very influential to mine.

ANTONY VOLLEY:

Cartoonist from Grimsby, U.K, decade long fan. I've thought long and hard about this subject. My views on Mr. Sim being one of the greatest cartoonists of all time have no bearings on my signing of this petition. Although I disagree with some of his opinions regarding feminism and gender issues I do not believe he is a misogynist. Thanks for all the great comics Mr. Sim and I hope your recovery from your recent medical problems continues apace! You remain an inspiration! 

DON VAN HORN:

I'm a fan and sometimes acquaintance. I was friends with Harry Kremer of Now and Then Books before he passed. As such I had many opportunities to visit with Dave personally and as a fan. He has only ever been kind and generous with his time and talent in my experience. Not once have I ever seen him disrespect a woman either in or out of their presence. 

The iPetition - Terry Phelps

TERRY PHELPS:
(iPetition signatory no. 278, 13 March 2011)

Dave Sim is not a misogynist, he's just made an in-depth and fascinatingly idiosyncratic stand on the issue of the dark side of feminism. Let us remember that feminism is a political movement. It is not "women", and it is not a vulnerable victim to be protected from "brutish men". As a man who came of age during the birth of 70's feminism, Sim's courageous and heartfelt position is a unique testament to the social effects of a widespread and oft-irrational social movement that sought to disenfranchise talented young men like himself. Those who criticise Sim ought to do a self-check. You can go to one "women's studies' lecture and call yourself a feminist. Cheap entry. What Sim has done - whether you subscribe to every detail in Sim's worldview or not - is to compose a highly detailed and thought-through philosophical response to an overwhelmingly more powerful political movement than his lone voice. Regarding such a unique viewpoint, one is hardly going to agree with every aspect. But this effort will rank as one of the first sustained, complex responses in the postfeminist world to the unacknowledged evils of the feminist socio-political machine. I can't pretend to understand or agree with Sim's religious views. But I'm sure his social commentary will inform generations to come. 

Show your support for Dave Sim by signing the iPetition.