Yeah?
You people are no fun...
Hi, Everybody!
So, Saturday I posted an open letter from Bill Ritter about Spawn #10. And, because I was busy, I didn't really comment on it or nothing.
And now there's...FORTY-SEVEN COMMENTS!
Fuck a duck...
I'm not running all the comments and responding. (Despite the fact that I run a blog about Cerebus the Aardvark, I DO have a life...)
So, first, the disclaimer:
As I said to Bill in an email:
I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with the Waverly Press, and on one hand wonder what I could do to try to improve it for you,Which is my "OFFICIAL" stance on all this:
And on the other hand, "Not my tea party..."
#1: Not my tea party
I'm neither an employee of Aardvark-Vanaheim, or The Waverly Press. While I will gladly help promote any of their efforts, it's out of loyalty to Cerebus, and the creators of the series. But, I don't get paid. (Well, that's not technically true, The Waverly Press has sent me a giant pile of stuff for free, but it wasn't like I hounded them to get it. You guys hate me now, right?) So, their PR problems aren't necessarily MY problems.
So, let's get to it...
#2: It doesn't matter what I say, some people are STILL gonna be pissed off...The central complaint appears to be that the Waverly Press are a bunch of "fly-by-night, money-grubbing, opportunists. Who are after every penny they can get, and will stop at nothing, NOTHING! in their quest to get it." (I'm paraphrasing...)
To which I answer: And?
It's not like anybody's holding a gun to your head. You have the right to say "no." I mean, in the general sense, I see the validity of the complaint. The sale of items doesn't end with the Kickstarter, that's "annoying". But, also mildly necessary. Prices for printing depend on print run size. If after the KS ends, the print run is short a couple dozen books for the next tier of pricing, an Indiegogo can make up the slack. (Also why Cerebus Overload exists. If they can get a break by overprinting, why not sell the excess on a site for OVER what the KS backers paid?) Which means a *slightly* higher profit for A-V/TWP. Which is sort of the point of the whole campaign, nu?
#3: How much?
Seiler said in the fucking (no swearing!) 47 comments:
To be more on point: So, there are or were 50 copies of the lenticular cover being sold (I actually thought it was a different cover version of which 100 copies fell off of the back of the truck, but whatever), at $395 each (!).Which echoes something Steve said in the comments on a previous post:
Even without S&H (and we all know that "handling" is corporate-speak for hidden revenues), that comes to just short of $20,000.
So, what percentage of that $20,000+ goes to Dave, what percentage goes to Todd, and what percentage goes to WP?
Show us the numbers, someone.
Help me understand something here:(Because I have some "insider" knowledge, I can kinda answer these...)
Dave refers to a revenue dry patch until mid June, but according to the Cerebusoverload page, sales on the following 5 releases --
Spawn Distressed cover set
Lenticular cover
Sketch book
Ashcan edition
Supplemental book
total by my calculations to $102,750.
Over $100K on those five ALONE.
So...why the revenue dust bowl?
Yeah, gotta pay printers, Dagon, this and that and the other. But there are 11 other various types of releases listed on JUST the Spawn 10 page alone...
So somebody out there help a body out here catch up to this here newfangled math 'cause this dog just don't hunt no more.
Steve
Short answer:
Nunya.
"Nunya?"
Yeah, Nunya gawdamn bidness!
Slightly less short answer:
 |
| "fuckin' *hic* vermin*hic*vermillion*hic*variant covers..." |
Long answer:
Both comments do some "back of the envelope" math, and come up with big numbers that don't necessarily reflect reality.
Lemme drop some truth on ya.
The profits from all these campaigns gets split four ways, between:
Dave
The Waverly Press
The Internal Revenue Service
Their Canadian equivalent
And, that's AFTER paying the printer, shipping, shipping supplies (bags and boards and whatnot), somebody to pack it all, and none of that is free.
Taking the price from Cerebus Overload, multiplying it by what you assume is the print run, and then DEMANDING to know how much is going to Dave, because OBVIOUSLY he's getting screwed is...is... I have no words.
The 3D lenticular cover IS a mess. Not for being offered, but for how it is what it is. The Waverly Press planned to sell 250 copies. They ordered 250 copies. They paid to print 250 copies...
They got FIFTY sellable copies.
(Keep in mind, production costs for the whole campaign were ten GRAND over what they had budgeted. And the Waverly "ate" that so Dave could get the maximum amount they could give him.)
So, they should what, eat the 200 unsellable copies?
Really?
Using Jeff's math: $395 times 50 is $19,750. Divide that by 250 is $79. Does $79 sound reasonable for a 3D cover? It does to me. But with two hundred unsellable copies, if they sold the 50 at $79, that leaves $15,800 in lost costs. (And that's assuming NO profit. And again, wasn't the point of all this to make some money for Dave and A-V?) (I admit, $79 a copy is probably WITH a markup to make SOME money, but the point still stands.)
And, yes, adding a *ridiculously* overpriced cover at this stage is a dick move. BUT, they were planning and working on this cover for SIX MONTHS, so it's not a "get-rich-quick-scheme", more a "long-drawn-out-process".
Also Jeff? Ya ever hear the phrase: "a lady never tells, and a gentleman never asks."?
Now, to Steve's point: Dave talked about a revenue dry patch. Not because the Waverly Press isn't paying him, they are (actually, they did, remember that for a minute.). But, because DAVE doesn't want to get paid for the Regency Edition until AFTER it's in buyers hands, and the printer won't be shipping until the end of May. I don't know if that means he's sitting on the checks until then, or if he asked not to be paid until then...
Either way, it's not a Waverly problem, it's a Dave problem.
Steve's list was (with the numbers added):
Spawn Distressed cover set $395X100= $39,500
The other big complaint is the adding of additional covers after the KS ended. That is kinda jerky. But, again, not entirely on the heads of the Waverly Press. The "Distressed" covers were made by the CiH? team AFTER the campaign ended (unless I misread that...), and if you read the comments on that post, people ASKED for them. So, giving "the people" what they want is a sin? (And the $395 asking price was to cover the cost for printing them. Since 50% of the produced books were given to the CiH? team and Dave.) Again, I don't see anybody in a hostage situation.
Lenticular cover $395X50=$19,750
I just explained this.
Sketch book $50X200= $10,000Add those three up and you get a BIG check.
Ashcan edition $75X300= $22,500
Supplemental book $40X300= $12,000
Huge.
As they say, "Where's the money Lebowski?"
Well, back in February, Dave told you where Aardvark-Vanaheim's cut of the Spawn #10 money is:
I did get paid for the Spawn 10 Kickstarter by Waverly Press, Aardvark-Vanaheim got paid. That is probably the largest amount of money that will ever come in, ever ever again, the same way that Spawn 10 back in 1993 was as good as things were gonna get with Cerebus, and Dave Sim and Aardvark-Vanaheim and everything was downhill from there to issue 300. I think we’re in the same situation here. Spawn 10 Kickstarter is probably the best possible result that we could get in terms of sales and response, getting people interested in Cerebus even tangentially, and everything’s downhill from here. So, I made the judgement call to say, okay, since this is the last big chunk of money that’s ever coming in, I’m gonna send most of it, not all of it, to Sean Robinson for the remastering. So, all of the remastering is paid for. Obviously, Sean’s not going to be able to do it overnight, but it’s one of those, I don’t have to just watch the money trickling away as it always does and going, okay, six months ago I had enough money to remaster six trade paperbacks, now I don’t, so I have no idea where the money’s going to come for these other trade paperbacks.(Emphasis mine. Also: Thanks Jesse!)
So, it's not like the Waverly Press is leaving Dave in poverty. Dave got paid.
He just decided that since seeing all that money was a sight he'll probably never see again, he, wisely in my view, decided to go and take care of paying to summit Mt. Everest NOW, instead of hoping the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles fans are crazier than the Spawn ones...
#4: Why the Waverly Press won't be in the comments:
Brian West wants the Waverly to drop by and explain themselves (I'm paraphrasing...)
Well, Brian, how do you answer:
Hitler did nothing wrong, but Waverly Press sure did.So, don't look for the Waverly to be sending somebody to answer anything...
#5: But Matt, tell us how you REALLY feel...
The Spawn #10 campaign had too many damn covers.
Let's pause, to see how that happened.
Way back when Dave and the Waverly Press started working together (I believe HE contacted THEM,) their first project was High Society: The Regency Edition. (Well, I think Dave suggested Swords of Cerebus at 40, but High Society was where the ball started rolling...)
And "Dat Guy" at The Waverly, had the idea for all sorts of add-ons and extras (I helped come up with some,) and ONE of those ideas was a replica of Cerebus #1, as an extra for the Regency Edition.
One thing lead to another, and the Remastered Cerebus #1 became the first A-V/TWP production.
And part of THAT campaign was three levels of covers. Standard. Gold. And Platinum. (And a fourth Promo cover added after the fact.)
So, with Spawn #10 (the BIGGEST payday that A-V/TWP would EVER see (Dave's words.),) the three tiers (Standard, Gold, Platinum) continued.
The problem?
Dave kept making more and more covers. (Seriously, he must have tried ten different Spawn and Cyan covers before he gave up. ONE of them ended up as the "Sketch" variant.)
Well, if you do four covers, at three levels, that's thirteen covers (with a promo cover.)
And, personally, I think the Gold and Platinum covers on Spawn #10 aren't that great. Because the Standard covers are full color, the black and white Gold and Platinum covers don't "do it" for me. (Especially since the format changed from the Gold to the Platinum with the addition of the EC Parody elements. Which, with the addition of the Full Color EC Parodies, implies that there's a missing set of Platinum standard covers, and a missing set of Gold EC Parodies. But I digress...)
I've talked with "Dat Guy" from the Waverly, and he said going forward, they're gonna probably stick to comics and trading cards with no "frills" for future campaigns.
But if you're REALLY that pissed, thewaverlypress@gmail.com. They'll be more than happy to look over any feedback you want to send...
But basically, buy what you like, don't buy what you don't.
It's really that simple...
______________________________
TOMORROW: Carson Grubaugh has a post with some exciting news! (Everybody still loves Carson, right?)
24 comments:
Tell 'em, Matt!
Yes. Buy what you want/like and don't buy extraneous stuff. Completistists will...um...complete, but complaining about the cost of being a completist seems completely silly. You buy in, or you don't. I didn't.
Having said that, WP had better up their game and get more ethical (to paraphrase Dave), or they're outta here. As far as I'm concerned.
Jeff,
What EXACTLY is Waverly Press doing that is Unethical?
Manly
(Their mandate from Dave is "make me as much money as you can", if they're doing that, what's the problem?)
Matthew, do you know for sure that Dave said that to WP? I ask because that seems very unlike Dave and his ethics.
Thanks for taking my question, Matt.
This reminds me of the way the bonus prints raised a lot more upfront ks cash for the portfolios but then created a back-end hassle when it came to sorting & shipping, right? And despite the excess stretch goal revenue, it didn't lead to much more significant profit once the excess labor was paid.
Hoping for nice new editions to come of the early, funny ones, and that's all I really want.
I love Carson! He’s great!
“Crossing Overload” is a load of BS.
There are (at this time) 53 comments on the Spawn 10 post. Only Tony commented fully supporting of Waverly Press. Some were indifferent, but appreciated the complaint. The majority were critical of how Waverly Press conducted business. These dozen or so posters were a small percentage of the Kickstarter’s near-600 backers, but these are regular AMOC posters and likely a core Cerebus contingent.
Whether the number of and nature of comments rises to the undefined standard Dave put forth and is this a discussion and a few or more than a few is Dave’s arbitrary decision about. If anyone believes what has happened on AMOC fulfills Dave’s “I’m hoping a discussion at AMOC can establish what those limits should be”, please explain to me. It was a one-sided discussion with fanboys, Matt’s “Crossing Overload” post included.
Why even bother with posting “Crossing Overload”? It offers little in way of respecting the nature of the complaint around Waverly. Point 1 – “not my tea party”. OK, fine – but by posting not a comment in discussion but an “official” AMOC post, and then proceeding with a point-by-point dismissal of many comments made in the original post that’s disingenuous at best.
I submitted said letter at request of Dave. I could really care less what Matt’s position on the situation is. “To which I answer: And?”. Do not care. What I am irritated with is lost hours writing up said letters and this outcome at AMOC.
You missed the point that several made around crowdfunding and backing. Same as Waverly Press. You are correct there is no gun to the head to participate…although I will state that many of these reveals (distressed covers, 3D) occurred after the campaign, after money was collected, and backers had no opportunity to cancel their pledge. No gun, but a bait-and-switch – arguably yes.
That entire paragraph “It’s not like anybody’s holding…” is apologist crap. As counterpoint to “Which is sort of the point of the whole campaign, nu?” – the point is to fulfill the agreement supported by backers and enabled by their support. I maintain Waverly failed to respect their agreement.
Two particularly…I guess offensive…inclusions:
“The 3D lenticular cover IS a mess. Not for being offered, but for how it is what it is. The Waverly Press planned to sell 250 copies. They ordered 250 copies. They paid to print 250 copies...” This suggests that Waverly always had in plan to do this.
“#5: But Matt, tell us how you REALLY feel…” indicates a more active participation in said situation that certainly creates a bias. It’s your blog, but boy…that puts a spin on how respected Waverly Press criticisms would be taken.
Ultimately, thank you for nothing but that waste of time. Send Dave a note. Dave says post to AMOC. AMOC discusses, with a subtle implication Waverly Press would address in some manner the criticism. Nothing. Matt writes a comment as a blog post, directs anyone still “pissed” to send an email to Waverly Press with a “good luck fella” equivalent “…happy to look over any feedback you want to send.” Yay, be still my heart at such an opportunity.
Multiple complaints about Waverly (here, on Facebook peppered all over on multiple posts, on the KS comments section). Given the “Crossing Overload” post and Waverly response, the “F-you all you complainers" has been received.
Bill,
You say, "My Kickstarter perspective is essentially: the creator establishes what the backer is backing and delivers on that without changing the terms of the agreement." That may be your perspective (and I won't accuse you of being disingenuous), but that's not what Kickstarter is. And your probably never going to be happy if you're waiting for Waverly Press (and everyone else) to share your perspective.
My perspective is: I buy books because I want the books. I don't expect Kickstarter to create a scarcity in which I can speculate. Otherwise, no campaign could ever exceed its goal by 1000% because the goal and incentives were fixed at the start.
And this is Matt's blog. He doesn't have to post anything. He can delete whatever comments he doesn't like. (Sometimes I wish he would).
For every single business, for any X number of customers that complain about something plainly visible but debatable (maybe negative, maybe not), there is a higher XX number of customers that have the same opinion but stay silent.
"We don't care if a handful complain" isn't really a good attitude for a situation where there are only a few hundred potential customers.
Remember Cerebus used to have a shitload of fans. What percentage of those actually voiced their opinion about why they don't follow it anymore? Sure plenty would have but then there were XX times as many who didn't care enough to say, they just stopped spending on it. Why they stopped isn't the point here, it's that XX number as many didn't say.
Starting with something as simple as not answering Q's on the Kickstarter messages (one random answer and a whole lot not answered, and nothing that would hurt them to answer either), all the way to "Take your money elsewhere if you don't like what we are doing" being pushed by supporters (yes I know that is generalised/exagerated), well that's just a perfect recipe to run down the customer base bit by bit.
With all the sales pitches and "look forward to more projects" promo stuff by TWP, selling to a diminishing club of buyers doesn't look like the future they are aiming for.
Bill, Mea Culpa.
I didn't handle this "right". A few reasons:
1: it's NOT my tea party. I have no solutions, because it's not my problems to fix. All I have is a forum. Who comes to play is out of my hands.
2:I wasn't really in the right head space to write "the next crisis", again, Mea Culpa.
3:I let Dave and "The Waverly Press" see your letters,I got no response from Canada, and nothing official from TWP.
I'll try again on Saturday.
Dan, thanks for the support.
Anonymous, but for all the X and XX, there's also Y, the people who don't agree with X, but don't choose to verbalize it. At this point it's either a vocal majority, a vocal minority, or a silent majority. Which is it? I dunno. And I got no real way of finding out...
Manly
(Welp, I guess that never seen Cerebus story can run NEXT Monday...)
Full Disclosure — Dave has paid me for ALMOST all of the restoration, with only Latter Days (and possibly an additional essay or two) remaining. And, if we ever get to it, that legendary Miscellaneous volume.
Maybe there's something else, but I'm pretty sure that's all that remains. The rest is in process! F + V done, Melmoth halfway, several other things already scanned and in various states of progress.
Matt, gratias tibi valde.
For the record, I'm neither a supporter nor a detractor of Waverly Press. In fact, to them I would say, "know your target market & try not to p*ss them off if you can avoid it."
Well stated Matt. And I don't say that 'cause you're the boss man. You echo my thoughts.
Plus I love all the extra goodies that I can get at CerebusOverload. I picked up a few extra sketch covers to have some fun with, and some extra pads and what not because they'll come in handy down the road.
Rich from Peoria here. Matt I hate you no more or less than I did in the past.
Dave warned Waverly Press about being less than exact and that us comic geeks would freak out. Personally I'm just a little unhappy, not mad or anything. But that's because this is Spawn. Who needs it.
Most importantly, those spoiled covers?!?!? Waverly didn't order unsellable product. Why did they accept delivery of damaged product. The printer owes Waverly Press owes 200 copies of sellable product.
What situation is forcing this fait accompli?
Someone needs to execute the contract and get the 250 at $95. Pricy but like the All-knowing Matt says: reasonable.
When a printer experiences errors...they keep at until the contract has been fulfilled!
Did Waverly spill Regency champagne on 200 covers?
Not satisfied, but not too terribly upset. When can we down with Spawn?
Rich.
"vocal majority, a vocal minority, or a silent majority"
Well, the issue is some will complain, a few more will agree with them and not complain (only a few people post here anyway, can't extrapolate from that really, sample size too small, all that matters is some are complaining so there are more that agree but stay silent).
But lets say you see only a few complain and a few support, go with the majority who don't complain (assume they are ok with everything), lose some in the process, when that can be avoided just by listening to the complaints as valid, rather than resorting to how many are complaining vs how many are ok with everything. Sort of like the 80/20 rule of business if you have a really small business 80/20 may be irrelevant with extremely small margins. Same for a really small customer base, not listening to complaints ("the others voted to ignore") isn't all that smart when the complaints can be fixed with little effort going forward.
Not "the customer is always right" because that's just bullshit to begin with, but more a case of actively trying to retain the XX out of the few hundred left, where the "actively trying" part is so easy.
I see Dave is as consistent as ever in his principles. When it's someone else (i.e. Fantagraphics), he insists on total transparency and public accountability and a "deep dive" into their internal record-keeping. When it's him, it's private business.
-- Damian
Oh, and Shecky,
Where the fuck do YOU get the right to question the Waverly Press's ethics?
Seriously...
Manly
Matthew: I, like anyone, have the freedom, in America, to question any business' ethicality in how they go about doing their business.
I see, from the comments, that I am not alone here.
A box full of free stuff to you and a box full of free stuff to M should not turn your head.
I guaran-damn-tee you, had I received one such box, it would not have changed my view one iota.
Hey Jeff S - I don't like you questioning my integrity by saying that a "box full of free stuff" "should not turn your head". Seriously? You question my integrity? Do you listen to yourself or read what your about to post? I'm hurt that you would even think of questioning my integrity let alone actually do it in a public forum.
Jeff,
You owe Margaret an apology.
In fact, I'd say you owe her three hundred and one apologies.
I'd get started if I were you...
Matt Dow
(You may think I'm joking. As the saying goes: "you may proceed with that assumption at your convenience." or to put it plainly: "fuck around and find out...")
M. I don't question your integrity. I have always, in our limited, personal (sort of [as friends]) way, known you to be a stand-up person. What I question is why WP would send you a box full of goodies to try to get you to try to be very vocal, unscripted, about supporting them, when they don't have their shit together.
Just sayin'.
Enjoy your goodies. I wish I could.
Sorta.
Thank you Jeff, for the clarification because reading your first comment about it, that is what it looked like you were saying. Now it just looks like you think Waverly Press is trying to buy me off. Which I can't speak to the intent of WP, but I'll tell you want I see.
WP isn't sending me box full of goodies to "be very vocal, unscripted, about supporting them". They send me box of goodies because of the help I'm giving them. You probably saw my name in the "Secret History of the Counterfeit No. 1" book? And when you get it, you'll see my essay and the scans of notebook pages I did in the High Society Notebook "comic" coming out with the regency edition. I also gave other support in different ways that you'll never see. So instead of getting money, I get some behind the scenes proofs, promo copies, and other stuff.
I still buy quite a lot of stuff from them. That lenticular cover? Yeah, I brought that (and it looks freaking awesome). The regency edition super duper edition? Yah, I brought that. And I brought a ton of side items, all the Spawn covers, etc. I buy the items to support Dave, because the items are really nice, and because 'cool Cerebus things'. I only wish Dave had this type of partnership earlier. Dave / AV has done some posters and prints and some t-shirts, but many of the cool side items have been done in really limited sizes and typically by people other than AV without too much if any involvement by Dave other than him nodding his head and saying as long as it is 'small quantities for one comic book store's clientele'.
So trust me when I say now I'm pretty fucking pissed off to hear that WP isn't going to be doing all those neat "side items" because of all the bitching about WP here and on FB. I'm pretty mad, because those side items are really neat. How often to you think Dave is going to offer a ton of trading cards or a Regency Hotel stationary and pen set?
So people didn't like how WP released items to different websites, or how they're only getting their product in a single polybag and ohhhhh, no backer board. The horror. The moment I got my items, I took them out of the single bag and put them all in my .003" thick archival safe mylar bags with an acid free backer board. That is just how I roll. Must be the "collector" in me. Those people who stated they got damaged items due to ship methods, got free replacements. Perhaps some people said thanks, but I just saw complaint after complaint about no back boards. If on the other hand, WP used double wall cardboard boxes with excessive inner packaging materials, we'd probably be hearing about excessive shipping costs. All my items came in a box with inner protection and were fine. So I bagged them like I wanted them, like all my other comics I get from other sources, and put them in my collection. To me I saw Waverly Press trying to do right for the people who got damaged books and trying to find a fine line between over spending on packaging supplies and finding a packaging solution that worked. And I think for the majority of people, it did work. We just hear the people that got upset about what they thought is the lack of protection for their comics.
Now because of what I think is a small but ever so vocal minority here, I'm going to be missing out on cool new Cerebus merchandise? Fuck. You. All. You ungrateful fucking bastards.
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